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  #11  
Old 09-28-2008, 07:35 PM
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elegy elegy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jynx View Post
I guess I would ask you what positive method you would use if this dog decided she was going to bite someone? And I don't mean to sound sarcastic (it's not meant to be)..While it may be the same thing basically (as reintro-ing her to nice dogs), (people mean good things) I am certainly not about to ignore it, should it transfer, if she chose to snap/nip at someone, that is totally unacceptable to me and she is going to get a correction for it.
but if she's nipping/biting/threatening out of FEAR, correcting her is just going to make it worse. she's scared, she's telling everybody she's scared, and you're going to show her that yes, indeedy, she has plenty of reason to be scared.

i think the books that were recommended earlier on- click to calm and control unleashed- will address this very very well. this is something that needs to be dealt with now, not wait until she starts snapping at people. she's already showing that she's uncomfortable. teaching her to reorient to you when she sees something that upsets her, teaching her to relax on cue, teaching her to trust you to protect her- all of those things will help.
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  #12  
Old 09-28-2008, 09:01 PM
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Wow, your trainer needs to smarten up and fast, its not the method but the out of control situation. Your poor pup. This actually REALLY pisses me off, because I went through the same thing years go with one of my dogs. Being jumped on from behind, out of control dogs in classes etc.
The advice of those books is excellent, they are great books. Personally if possible I would change trainers but not the method, go to a trainer that has control of their classes and doesn't allow such dangerous and foolish things to happen.
Positive isn't permissive and it shouldn't be developing rude dogs and people who don't know the difference.
I also agree that corrections with a dog that is fearful is not a good idea, nor is it fair.
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  #13  
Old 09-28-2008, 09:42 PM
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In the class now is it is some kind of free time or during class?
If it's free time, I'd just leave before it started since she has so many other dogs to socialize with.
If it's not in free time I'd look for another class.

In one of Dante's more advanced classes (he was a year old) there was a leash reactive Dobie. The instructor told all of us at the first class and those that chose not to take the series could get their money back or move to a different group. One person left and the rest of us stayed. We all knew, we all acted accordingly and it worked out great.
That is the way I want all my classes to be - it sounds like you have some folks not on the same page as you
And in payment for my .02 we need a picture
Oh wait, I'm not a trainer so I get no payment
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  #14  
Old 09-29-2008, 08:46 AM
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Some great advice so far.

I would like to make a point though. DA in NO WAY makes your dog at anymore of a risk of HA than any other dog. I know some pretty DA dogs that are great with people, and some HA dogs who love every dog. The two are not correlated.

I do have a reactive dog. I train my dog to focus on me. I do not scare my dog into obedience. If ONE correction with a prong stopped a serious issue, then that correction must have been pretty horrible to the dog-but was actually a 'proper correction' (a correction if used should be harsh enough to stop the behaviour with one use, if not you are merely abusing) The problem is your dog may learn that this only happens with the prong collar on. The dog may learn to respect the prong collar and not you. Its pretty obvious to the dog if they are wearing it or not. I know of a few people who slapped a prong collar on and now have to stay with it. Some people train the issues and use prong collars as backups (just in case the dog sees a prey animal and the person isn't paying attention at that moment) I personally wouldn't but that isn't the issue

We have a very 'herdy' young BC. He is learning to curb his desire to chase things inappropriately. Lots of positive reinforcement and redirection. He is a BIG BC and my son is only just turned 8 (its his agility dog) He started off with a halti (not that I am a huge fan of those, just child is small and dog is big) and is now transitioning to a flat collar.
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  #15  
Old 09-29-2008, 09:24 AM
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About halfway through the original post she mentioned her dog was now lunging at some people, I think that's where her concern about HA is stemming from.

Edit: Also, I agree with everyone else about not going back to this particular trainer. Sounds like she does not have control of the class.
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  #16  
Old 09-29-2008, 09:37 AM
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I know I wouldn't be going back to that class again
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  #17  
Old 09-29-2008, 09:47 AM
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Sounds like to me the trainer does not have control of the class and not aware of the levels of the dogs to intermix. YOu need a new trainer.
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  #18  
Old 09-29-2008, 10:43 AM
Falconara Falconara is offline
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I dont know how that is quite related to this thread...but OK. I thought Release the Hounds and BM's advice were generally what the poster was asking for

Here's my two cents...the trainer probably went about the puppy play time incorrectly. My boss is a PPM Trainer....but the way our classes are structured the pups only have 30seconds to a minute to play with each other, and only two at a time. If we start to see problems we work on distanct and desensitization...and as soon as we see a problem we pull the puppies....no questions asked. And the out of control thing kind of makes me skeevy...we keep our dogs on a leasg or tether to prevent problems like that...the result is I've seen two dogs accidentally get loose in 6 months of training (something like 11-15 lessons a week). In this case I think the traininer needs a little work.

However :

The human aggression probably wouldnt have come from this class as the dog aggression shouldnt translate...its a different folder in the dogs mind.

I have a HUGE amount of reservations about using a prong collar on a pup...and I have reservations about using them on any dog. They can be a great tool in the right hands with the right dog...otherwise they are a disaster. For example...you might have corrected your dog for barking and lunging at a car, but they might have seen a human at the moment of correction....which means they associate human with bad thing...which can lead to human aggression. You just have to be very exact and very aware when using them. Additionally...probably not a good idea to use a correction collar on a dog with fear issues....because your going to make the fear issues worse.

Whats more...when you are using a correction collar on a dog for barking and lunging at another dog you also have to be very careful...because it is likely that you will train the dog to hide the aggressive warning signs and go straight for the attack....causing you to have a dangerous and unpredictable dog....very bad in a shepherd from those lines...I've been bit like a dog like that at traininig....no warning, just bite.

Positive methods generally are better in my mind for fixing these issues....you use distance and basically reward whenever the dog is being good, decreasing the distance as you get closer...as soon as you see a hint of a problem increase the distance and begin again.

I will say that drivey dogs are a dream with the positve methods training...especially in the beginning....my female has lower drives and is harder to train...while my male is all drives and comes to class (when I take him) as the star....because he'll do anything for food or a Cuz ball or a Tug (albiet I might loose some fingers in the process).

We tend towards positive methods initially in my Club...and then when the dog has the idea (also depending on the dog) we might add in a correction collar to clean up the routine...but this usually isnt until the dog is a bit older, and already knows what they are supposed to do.

~Cate
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  #19  
Old 09-29-2008, 10:59 AM
borzoimom borzoimom is offline
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Thanks Cate.. I was drying Zubin.. lol. With a full mature coat it takes awhile.
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  #20  
Old 09-29-2008, 11:01 AM
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dropping the class was already suggested numerous times as was dropping that particular trainer. I think Red was saying we need some 'new' imput not just rehashing what has already been said.
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