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  #31  
Old 09-25-2008, 06:20 PM
Jynx Jynx is offline
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a book I love that may help with your clicker training,,Clicking with Your Dog by Peggy Tilman...I love this book,,it offers TONS of behaviors to teach with clicker, and really breaks them down in easy step by step instruction.

Don't be to down on yourself,,we ALLL make mistakes!!! and we ALL are not perfect handlers/owners..Hang in there,,I hope you can come to some resolution regarding her diarhea!!
diane
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  #32  
Old 09-25-2008, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by adojrts View Post
Please stop training her for the time being if she is that sick, there is no way she can be physically or mentally able to learn. And by being that sick with trying to train her, she will avoid you.
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Originally Posted by Domestika View Post
I'm not going to stop training her because she is sick. If she were lethargic and acting ill I would of course not work her, but she is very bright, energetic and excitable so I'm not going to miss out on getting some training in on the ground floor simply because [unbeknownst to her] her body isn't working quite right.
Can there be a happy medium somewhere? Been reading through this thread, then spent a minute grabbing a few notes w/ copy/paste. Please look at the list of all the stuff you have done so far, just from your posts to this thread. Please read with an open mind ... take a breath, forget the frustration for a minute, read as if the following had been posted by someone else ...

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Originally Posted by Domestika View Post

we've spent a LOT of time on "look at me" exercises
She uses her mouth and teeth on me constantly despite the many, many, many techniques I have used to try to stop that.
I've spent a LOT of time working on getting her to pay attention
We are in puppy classes and we can have a trainer come to the house,
I do all the stuff from Nothing in Life is Free.
I was jumping up and down, clapping, cheering, getting all excited.
I'm trying now to not pay any attention to her.
I treat her for looking at me (which is very rare and she usually doesn't want the treat) and I don't talk to her, for the most part.
Do you have suggestions for fun things to teach a pup with a clicker?
I've made a big change from how I used to do things. I was so intent on catching EVERYTHING she did so that I could reward it...I would stare at her constantly so that the second she looked at me I could reward her.
So now I don't look at her when she looks at me. I don't look away, but I don't stare at her for no reason. I also don't talk to her very much..
That's an awful lot ... very inconsistent, first one thing then it's direct opposite. All with a creature who's been on Earth 3 months, much of that time spent sick with continual diarrhea, many vet visits and medical tests, different diets, different medications that of course you must give her, and it's likely her stomach hurts. The health problems alone must be terribly worrisome for you to begin with, now you've convinced yourself she doesn't like you.

Probably closer to Gena's thought that your puppy just doesn't know what to expect next. She doesn't know anymore how to respond ... so she's not responding at all.

You talked about letting frustration get the best of you, unfortunately several times. There was a posted "GRRRR" about having to throw away several bowls of expensive food when her appetite wasn't there ... you were going to start refrigerating refused meals but also expressed frustration that she won't eat leftovers. Adjorts warned of consequences of letting frustration get to you in the manner that it has ... you replied that you would prefer not to be reminded of those times.

Your vet isn't even sure at this point what the problem is, you were frustrated the breeder didn't answer an email for a week, then mentioned the breeder offered to trade for a different puppy and you considered that but possibly would prefer to build a relationship with this one. (The breeder still has Nova's sister? Did she mention what she would do with your sick puppy if you went ahead with a trade?) You had many very high expectations in mind of your own "little buddy" and all that would entail ... and have expressed great disappointment that current reality doesn't match that imagined picture.

Please take this the right way, I realize you're very frustrated so NOT trying to get on your case ... but it's looking like you and your puppy are BOTH shutting down.

Is there possibly a friend who could puppy-sit for a weekend? Granted, it would need to be a good and very responsible friend, because this a sick puppy with diarrhea who needs medication and special feeding right now. Don't say "no" right away ... really think about it ... I would do this in a hot second for a friend in a similar situation so there must be someone you know who would do so too. Could this be possible?

Honestly it looks like you both could use a much-needed break ... afterward both of you can have a fresh start on building a relationship.
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  #33  
Old 09-25-2008, 08:22 PM
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I can see why you want to train her at thi young age but I think you are way to strick with this pup. I kno wyou don't like to be chewed on but ALL puppie do this.

[...]

I'm really not sure why you are ignoring her but you think that she should be all over you but you have to teach her that you are a great peron to be with and holding her is the place to start.
I don't believe I am being strick by asking her to sit before she gets her dinner. I am not expecting perfection BY A LONG SHOT. I am fully aware that puppies don't "do what their told" 99% of the time. In fact, I don't particularly care how well she's trained at this point. My main concern, going back to my original post, is that she doesn't care to interact with me.

I'm aware puppies chew. It's nothing to do with me "not liking it"; why would I get a puppy if I couldn't handle some puppy chewing? I did and continue to do lots and lots of reading about puppyhood and everything I have read and everyone I've spoken to has told me that puppies need to learn bite inhibition by 14 weeks or you have yourself a problem. She is not on par with most puppies her age in terms of bite inhibition and none of the techniques that work on "most" puppies have any effect on her. Her biting has gotten worse, not better. So there's more to it than me "not liking" being bitten or not being understanding that puppies bite.

I'm "ignoring" her on suggestion from a number of people in this forum and from reading I've done. It seems to be quite common to "ignore" a dog who is ignoring you to try to eventually gain their attention.
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  #34  
Old 09-25-2008, 09:06 PM
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That's an awful lot ... very inconsistent, first one thing then it's direct opposite.
I wish I knew how to quote different parts of a post. I only know how to quote one piece so I'll have to reply from memory. "GRRR".

Of course that list is inconsistent! You've taken every technique that I have tried over the last 6 weeks and put it all together like I pick and chose from the list how I'll interact with her today. Today I'll be...excited! Ok...and tomorrow I'll be...distant! In reality, that is a list of the progression of techniques that I have tried (on advice from my trainer and of course wonderful Chazzers) over more than a month. I try something, if it doesn't work then I try something else. That's how it's supposed to work, right? Things are a little more extreme now (with "ignoring" her), but it hasn't come about out of thin air.

However. You have hit on an issue that is a very sore spot for me. And while I'd like nothing better than to argue with you and tell you how you've TOTALLY got me all wrong and I'm not the out of control, domineering perfectionist your post has made me out to be... I have to admit that I am struggling, not just with my pup, and you are right...it's taken its toll on her and our relationship.

I have a GREAT deal of difficulty admitting it, but I am currently experiencing a period of major depression, which happens from time to time and unfortunately has coincided with doing something tough and stressful for even the average person: raising a puppy! I try very, very, very hard to be as upbeat, optimistic and fun to be around as possible for her. I take a break from her if I need it, I call my husband if I need to vent (he goes to school overseas), I remind myself frequently that I need to exercise patience and and I work very hard at being as consistent and understanding as possible.

I am scared of raising her incorrectly. She will be a big dog and she has a lot of drive so I consider it doubley important to make sure she gets off on the right foot and grows into a well-adjusted, controllable adult. I work with animals and I have seen many, many out of control adult dogs and I don't want my dog to be like that. I admit that maybe this has been a preoccupation for me and has been detrimental rather than helpful in my raising her so far. I was raised very strictly and unfortunately I'm often at a loss about how to be moderate in my expectations.

So, no. I'm not angry GRRR about wasting food. Money is no limit when it comes to my pets (it can be annoying flushing it down the toilet, of course, but it doesn't anger me). I'm not angry at the breeder or my vet or anyone else. I don't abuse my dog and she isn't being forced to work beyond her ability or capacity with her illness. She is EXTREMELY energetic and bouncy when she wants to be, so if she's feeling like crap she has a pretty funny way of showing it. I am in daily contact with my vet (and often my trainer!) to get advice or adjust how we're doing things. She is very well looked after.

I love animals. I love MY animals. I would do anything for my dog. I want her to be happy and, as a first time puppy owner who is living alone (siiiiigh) and going through a tough time, I am struggling with giving her the awesome puppyhood she completely deserves. I have the very best intentions and I truly want to see our relationship blossom. I just don't have the skills necessary to effortlessly and without mistake mold a puppy who is very independent and headstrong. She was 6 weeks old when I picked her and neither the breeder nor I saw anything in her personality that conflicted with what I was looking for (happy, bubbly, confident, loving of people/kids/dogs, even tempered and affection - we just sorta fell of the mark on the affection part).

In a way, I completely hate your post cause it seriously makes me look like such a freak. You've taken every slightly negative thing I've said over a dozen posts and lumped it all into one diatribe of misery and frustration that I don't think accurate portraits what I am doing with my dog. But there is some truth to it (ok, a lot), so I appreciate your post as a bit of a wake up call. It's probably a lot more me and a lot less her.
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  #35  
Old 09-25-2008, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Domestika View Post
In a way, I completely hate your post cause it seriously makes me look like such a freak. You've taken every slightly negative thing I've said over a dozen posts and lumped it all into one diatribe of misery and frustration that I don't think accurate portraits what I am doing with my dog. But there is some truth to it (ok, a lot), so I appreciate your post as a bit of a wake up call. It's probably a lot more me and a lot less her.
You are not a freak ... neither is your puppy. I was not trying to imply that, nor imply that you don't love your animals. Sorry if it didn't come across as intended ... intention was that your heart's in the right place with your pup but maybe you're just trying too too hard ... but for the right reasons. In the meantime she's sick and you're stressed.

Wish I could just stop by and give you a break for a bit 'cause you are just so very stressed out.
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  #36  
Old 09-25-2008, 09:37 PM
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Kayla Kayla is offline
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I don't think anyone is suggesting you are doing anything wrong, I certainly don't and inconsistent isn't the worst thing in the world, sometimes it can be good if one method isnt working. Sometimes I will spontaniously switch in the middle of a shaping session with Duke if one thing isn't working. I think all GR was trying to point out is perhaps not to worry to much as you have only had your little guy for not too long and you have tried alot of different things, so it is only natural to assume that you may simply just need more time until you and your pup find your niche- so to speak.

Im strongly backed with clicker training personally but this is just me, I think there is alot of good advice in this thread, maybe some of it could have been worded a bit differently, but for the most part, I strongly believe everyone who has posted is just trying to give you different advice, what you decide to take away is ultimately your call.

Puppy years are tough for sure, but they can be a mixed blessing, I was going through a similar bout of depression when I had Duke during his "hell years" and he really really helped me in positives way through it, but like anything else it had ups and downs, hang in there

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  #37  
Old 09-25-2008, 10:38 PM
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I think there is alot of good advice in this thread, maybe some of it could have been worded a bit differently, but for the most part, I strongly believe everyone who has posted is just trying to give you different advice, what you decide to take away is ultimately your call.

Puppy years are tough for sure, but they can be a mixed blessing, I was going through a similar bout of depression when I had Duke during his "hell years" and he really really helped me in positives way through it, but like anything else it had ups and downs, hang in there

I definitely agree. I've found this post really helpful. Lots of great advice, and sometimes it's nice just to share your situation even if other people can't necessarily relate. But lots and lots to think about, which is super.

And Nova really has been a mixed blessing for me, too. I'm not very proud of it, but when I'm depressed I don't take very good care of myself. I can easily stay in the house for an entire day, or even days on end without ever leaving. And my sleeping habits are often horrrible. But the pup comes first and when she needs some exercise, she goes for a nice walk and gets some fresh air and...what do you know, I get some exercise too! She goes to sleep at 11pm and she's up at 8am so I am too, which is great. Sometimes I think this was a horrible time to get a puppy and other times I feel like this was definitely the right time.
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  #38  
Old 09-25-2008, 10:42 PM
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Domestika Domestika is offline
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Originally Posted by TheGoldenRetriever View Post
You are not a freak ... neither is your puppy. I was not trying to imply that, nor imply that you don't love your animals. Sorry if it didn't come across as intended ... intention was that your heart's in the right place with your pup but maybe you're just trying too too hard ... but for the right reasons. In the meantime she's sick and you're stressed.

Wish I could just stop by and give you a break for a bit 'cause you are just so very stressed out.
No, no. It came across just as you intended it. It's just a bitter pill to swallow when someone calls you on your less than stellar behaviour.
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  #39  
Old 09-25-2008, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Jynx View Post
a book I love that may help with your clicker training,,Clicking with Your Dog by Peggy Tilman...I love this book,,it offers TONS of behaviors to teach with clicker, and really breaks them down in easy step by step instruction.

Don't be to down on yourself,,we ALLL make mistakes!!! and we ALL are not perfect handlers/owners..Hang in there,,I hope you can come to some resolution regarding her diarhea!!
diane
Thanks for the support! I'll check out that book. The more clicker stuff we do the more she seems to like it, which is awesome.
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  #40  
Old 09-25-2008, 10:54 PM
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(The breeder still has Nova's sister? Did she mention what she would do with your sick puppy if you went ahead with a trade?)
Nova's sister is being returned due to a sudden family breakup. The breeder is interested in having Nova back because she feels she should be responsible for the "headache" of her ongoing health problems. My guess is that she would keep her as a pet, or adopted out if she was suddenly completely healthy with no long term illness predicted. She keeps several dogs purely as pets, in addition to her working dogs.
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