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  #11  
Old 07-28-2005, 04:19 PM
stirder
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yes I did generalize, I meant to say working and herding breeds dont do what they were bred for. and I know about those winners in the past 3 years because I watch the shows, look the winners up online and their breeding kennels, and have even requested info from the working and herding breeds clubs. and I guess that is also a generalization so let me clarify further, most of the working and herding breeds. I have done a lot of research on the winners of best in show and best in breed of: gsd, doberman, rottweiler, border collie, rough and smooth collie, old english sheepdog, malinois, australian cattle dog, and a few others. alaskan malamute, husky, samoyed, akita, mastiff, great dane, bullmastiff (last 3 would be difficult to do what they were bred for though), and some others. so no not all of them that I know of. but too many.
and no its not the akc's fault, though they do share some of the blame (get to that in a second). the individual breed clubs should preserve the breed and require them to do the work/job they were bred for. with the gsd yes the american gsd club is horrible in the way they allow breeders to breed for angulation and everything else.
the akc shares the blame in that...the judges of conformation shows are akc judges. the standard is known to the akc (for all breeds they accept) and yet they dont follow the standard with all of the dogs. yes with many breeds they do I am sure. (and earlier I didnt mean for companion and toy breeds to be lumped into that broad statement, they do their job, I meant dogs that are in working/herding categories). I use the gsd as an example because they have deviated so severely from the standard in the US. I dont mean it to sound as if I am only focussing on the gsd, just an easy target with this topic.
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  #12  
Old 07-28-2005, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
I meant to say working and herding breeds dont do what they were bred for.
I think that's still too much of a generalization. I see many Dobermans, mine included who are very capable of doing what they're bred for. There are a lot of good Dobermans out there these days, probably due to less fad/popularity or whatever it is that seems to go in trends. I agree about the poor GSD. I use to have them and they weren't so terribly angulated...had good hips, were beefy and strong, could trot, covering good distance with little effort. It's a shame how things have gotten.
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  #13  
Old 07-28-2005, 04:38 PM
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well yes, I explained and de-generalized that statement before I said it in parenthesis where you copied it. most of the working and herding dogs who compete and win in american shows have never done their originally intended job, their parents and granparents for the most part didnt either.
maybe I should explain...from my perspective, for a dog to do what it was intended to do (going to use the gsd again, sorry)...with the gsd this is many things, schutzhund is the sport I will use here as it was created by max von stephanitz as a way to evaluate eash gsd for breeding worthiness. for one thing, the hips and angulated back make them less inclined to schutzhund. also they are bred for showing and not for a working temperament. most of the breeders of american showline gsd's have never set foot on a schutzhund field (could also say herding, agility, search and rescue, etc). many claim schutzhund titled ancestry of their dogs, it is the great grandfather got a schutzhund title. this in no way means the pups could have the temperament for working. this is true of too many breeds shown in akc and bred for show. the gsd is 90% more popular in schutzhund than the doberman or rottweiler. yes there are some in it. but even if both parents were titled sch III it doesnt mean their pups will all have a working temperament. Im not saying that if you have a gsd or dobie that you should compete in schutzhund, or if you have a husky you should compete in sledding. I am saying that if you are trying to prove your dog is worthy of breeding that you should not consider conformation titles alone, or schutzhund alone, proof. you should compete in as many sports as are available to your breed. the whole purpose of breeding is one: to continue the breed, but more than that is 2: to improve the breed. by improve I mean get as close to the original standard and purpose of the breed as possible.
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  #14  
Old 07-28-2005, 05:14 PM
wildwings811 wildwings811 is offline
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I just want to say a statement not arguing though

The breeders and breedclubs could make a difference

If they took a stand and refused to breed poorly conformed GSD's then the judges who are AKC judges would not have a choice but to choose the correctly conformed GSD's so there again it comes back to the breeders and breedclubs they are ultimately responsible for the destination of the breed
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  #15  
Old 07-28-2005, 06:06 PM
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Stirder....I truly don't disagree with you, I just don't like it when people generalize and assume all AKC show dogs don't know how to do their original job and that people don't care and it's all about vanity. You have researched top winners, but in all honesty those dogs make up a TINY portion of all the top quality AKC dogs. I do agree however that it would indeed make more sense if working/herding/sporting dogs were titled in their original purpose to some extent.

AND remember....standard is sadly in the eyes of the beholder and up to interpretation. In regards to gait, the pug standard it says "There is a slight natural convergence of the limbs both fore and aft. A slight roll of the hindquarters typifies the gait which should be free, self-assured, and jaunty." Now tell me how easy that is to interpret right off hand!!! LOL, especially if you are really not a "pug" person. Maybe judges should have to be more experienced in the breeds they judge....ey
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  #16  
Old 07-28-2005, 06:20 PM
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And let me pontificate once again on the golden retriever...

What's up with the short, little squat bodies of flowing white/faint yellow fur? They look like little medium sized fluffy dogs. Last I recall, they are in the "large" breed categorization. Give me a big, golden/reddish golden and I'll be happy. They seem to be trying to do the same to labs. I realize there are two types of labs -- field and English. I'll take the field anyday. They're even making an English shorter and squatter with hardly any tail left, they're so stubby. Give me a big, noble field style with a nice head with set ears... and I'll be happy again!
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  #17  
Old 07-28-2005, 06:33 PM
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There's the English type, a square-faced, thick, heavy-set dog with a distinct otter tail; the American bench type, a taller, thinner-bodied dog with a longer face; and the field trial type, a dog bred for working ability alone that can be either type, or somewhere in-between.
I'm seeing too many big honking (over one hundred pound) chunkily built labs - it's kind of annoying.
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  #18  
Old 07-28-2005, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaddylovesdogs
I'm seeing too many big honking (over one hundred pound) chunkily built labs - it's kind of annoying.
Tell me about it, but the majority of "show" labs are morbidly obese in my opinion. I would like to see one of them run in the field without killing over!
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  #19  
Old 07-28-2005, 06:53 PM
gaddylovesdogs gaddylovesdogs is offline
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Exactly!! They just look like big chunkers to me. May is thin, she has a nice short of blockhead (I guess) a nice otter tail and big huge paws. She looks nothing like the majority of the labs I'm seeing today.
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  #20  
Old 07-28-2005, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaddylovesdogs
Exactly!! They just look like big chunkers to me. May is thin, she has a nice short of blockhead (I guess) a nice otter tail and big huge paws. She looks nothing like the majority of the labs I'm seeing today.
I think they need to make up their minds on which one carries out their "job" best and stick to it. What is this english, american, and field variety? No wonder people are so opinionated on what a lab is suppose to look like. It's tiring thinking about it! Oh, and horray for you, it's not everyday that someone can claim that their lab is thin. They are just so fat and unhealthy now days!!!
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