Labradoodles

[Laurelin]

Originally Posted by noludoru

I'm NOT saying they're wrong! I was just saying that to my knowledge they do not fit the breed's original purpose, Dekka, and if that is the case, yes I have a problem with them breeding the smallest ones.

Based on my knowledge the miniatures came later as more of a companion animal after doodles became more popular as pets. People wanted smaller ones so they started using miniature poodles for some crosses.

[Dekka]

Originally Posted by noludoru

I'm NOT saying they're wrong! I was just saying that to my knowledge they do not fit the breed's original purpose, Dekka, and if that is the case, yes I have a problem with them breeding the smallest ones.

I think the breed is to 'young' to have an original purpose. There are breeds out there now that started as one thing but evolved into another. Not saying they should be making small doodles, but not sure why they should either.

(ie I have NO idea why schnauzers some in tiny, small and HUGE. But they do and that is ok with everyone)

[Dekka]

Still playing devil's advocate...

Corgilove you are getting a pup that would not be able to be shown in the breeds country of origin. Brown newfs are a huge no no here. But why is that ok but other people changing (and liking the changes too) is not? The mom of your pup (according to her pedigree if I remember when I looked at it) has no titles either. These labradoodles CAN'T show conformation (brown newfs can in the states).

Hmm you know back in the day newfs and labs did pretty much the same job. Guess they should have just picked one and not kept 2 strains. (heck Newfoundland and Labrador are ONE province, one strain got one part of the name, the other one the other)

[Adambesme]

It's my understanding that breeds as we know them today...with breed standards, etc., only date back 100-150 years. It was more that there were types of dogs, retrievers, terriers, herders...seperated by function, and then the different types of retrievers, for example, were seperated by geography.

So a doodle (absurd name) is a combination of two retrievers...seperated by an ocean. Which begs the question of why, if not to retieve. I have a pb dog, but the reason has less to do with looks, and more to do with temperament. I knew generally what I was getting myself into. I would think the time and scope and scale to create a new breed (of unused retriever) is so epic that to develop any kind of standard of temperament, nevermind looks, is folly without really really truely knowing what one's doing.

Unless one sticks to F1s, which are more predictable, but this breeder isn't. Do they really know where this is going?

[ACooper]

Originally Posted by Dekka

To play devils advocate...

Why? Cute with a good temperament and healthy is basically all the general public cares about. One of the reasons there are so many unadopted dogs in shelters and such is that they are the ones the 'public' doesn't want.

Toys were all created to be cute companion dogs. Why is ok for people to do it 100 years ago and not now?

Since I am actually John Q Public in the fact that my pets are just that.......I don't show (and never will) I don't do sports or agility (don't know if I ever will) I don't even do OB to earn titles (don't know if I ever will) so I am basically John Q.

This is my opinion on the whole "dogs shouldn't be bred without titles" issue.

I personally would by from a breeder (if I were looking to buy from a breeder) who breeds loving companion animals with good temperament, health testing, and nothing more.

It really doesn't matter to me if the parents have been CH titled or tested in their "job abilities" because I can't see myself ever looking for a dog who has to work (as with the vast majority of people)

I know this might be a quite unpopular opinion, but that is how I feel on the issue. There was a time when I felt differently (as in the dog SHOULD be titled) but not really anymore for reasons of my own.

Now, after all that, I will say that even if I were looking for a doodle I would not want to buy from that breeder. The fact that they are breeding their dogs at such an early age bothers me.

It's not simply the fact of how it effects the parents (mother) to be bred at a young age, it's MORE the fact of not knowing health AND temperament issues that may not show up until after the dog is fully mature.

And THAT totally defeats the purpose of seeking out a healthy/happy pup to fit into your life as far as I am concerned.

[corgi_love]

Lauralin, I WAS talking about seeing/guide dogs.

Originally Posted by Dekka

Still playing devil's advocate...

Corgilove you are getting a pup that would not be able to be shown in the breeds country of origin. Brown newfs are a huge no no here. But why is that ok but other people changing (and liking the changes too) is not? The mom of your pup (according to her pedigree if I remember when I looked at it) has no titles either. These labradoodles CAN'T show conformation (brown newfs can in the states).

Hmm you know back in the day newfs and labs did pretty much the same job. Guess they should have just picked one and not kept 2 strains. (heck Newfoundland and Labrador are ONE province, one strain got one part of the name, the other one the other)

Err, Canada is the only place who refuses to update their standard If any standard were to make small changes, like accepting a new eye or coat color is, uh, pretty darn different than adding an entire new breed!

Your right, Kyrie's mother was not shown! However, my point was was that this BYB doesn't do ANYTHING with her dogs. Kyrie's breeder shows nearly all of her dogs So my point wasn't that everyone must show, it was that she doesn't do much with her own dogs.

The primary breeders of St. John's dogs may have even crossbred the black St. Hubert's hound from the country of France , the Portugal water dogs and the European point breeds with one another. As a result two main breeds were formed: one was the larger Newfoundland which was used for purposes of hauling, and the short-coat retrievers for pulling and retrieving equipment from the waters. The smaller version of these two resulted in the Labrador .

Lol, not quite the same

[Dekka]

Originally Posted by corgi_love

Lauralin, I WAS talking about seeing/guide dogs.


Err, Canada is the only place who refuses to update their standard If any standard were to make small changes, like accepting a new eye or coat color is, uh, pretty darn different than adding an entire new breed!

My point was that people changed the breed standard not for any functional reason. Just cause 'awwww' brown newfs are cute.... and people want to buy them. If the country of origin wants to keep the breed true to its roots..I am all for that. (but you can't complain that other people change breeds and types of dogs for looks if you get a pup that has been so changed.)

Originally Posted by corgi_love

Your right, Kyrie's mother was not shown! However, my point was was that this BYB doesn't do ANYTHING with her dogs. Kyrie's breeder shows nearly all of her dogs So my point wasn't that everyone must show, it was that she doesn't do much with her own dogs.

Does she just show conformation? Or does she show performance events. If she just shows conformation then yes IMO they are the same. Doodle breeders don't have that option. And while I wish everyone would, not all people have the time to train their dogs to competative levels of obed or agility. At least the doodle breeder is putting CGN on them.

I guess I was saying is that I see a lot of (not just you but from ppl in general) its ok for me, or my breed-but those doodle people do it wrong no matter what they do.

[elegy]

Originally Posted by Dekka

And while I wish everyone would, not all people have the time to train their dogs to competative levels of obed or agility.

and that bothers me if we're talking about breeders. if you are invested enough in your dogs to be breeding them, shouldn't you be invested enough in them to actually *do* something with them? i have a problem with casual breeding. i don't have much stomach for we don't have the money to show or the time to show (and i don't care if that's conformation or agility or rally or herding or whatever). how are they going to find the money to health test and the time to properly handle and socialize pups?

[Dekka]

They do health test (if you checked out the page). And they do train enough to get CGNs. And (still playing devils advocate) if they are spending lots of time handling dogs and socializing pups maybe they don't have the hours and hours to train for competition. And depending on your area in the states there are few venues for all breed trials. There are very few AMBOR trials and none in many areas. In some areas there is only AKC agility (I hear about this on agility lists all the time).

Its ok for people to buy pups from non titled (not even in conformation) yet health tested purebred, but not from new breeds?

[ACooper]

Originally Posted by elegy

and that bothers me if we're talking about breeders. if you are invested enough in your dogs to be breeding them, shouldn't you be invested enough in them to actually *do* something with them? i have a problem with casual breeding. i don't have much stomach for we don't have the money to show or the time to show (and i don't care if that's conformation or agility or rally or herding or whatever). how are they going to find the money to health test and the time to properly handle and socialize pups?

I know of breeders (who are considered good breeders) who send their dogs off with a handler for MONTHS at a time. Something I never understood and couldn't do myself. This, I would assume, is because they don't have the time to travel/be with the dog during all the shows, but they get that all important title before breeding the dog. Does that make them a better candidate to breed and socialize puppies? I have to wonder...........