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  #21  
Old 08-31-2008, 08:39 AM
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because the dogs in shelters deserve homes...and those same people who put them there...will put their new dog there too the moment there is a problem??? As long as people show their tendency to be flightly and irresponsible the plain don't DESERVE to have anyone give them more options and opportunities to own animals they will later discard.
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  #22  
Old 08-31-2008, 08:52 AM
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umm of course dogs in shelters deserve homes. BUT I am not going to go to my shelter and adopt a hound or a lab if that all they have in there. I don't want a hound or a lab.

I don't get the whole mentality that joe public should not be able to have a nice dog of his choosing because some idiot miller or byb produced too many unwanted dogs.

I would adopt a more appropriate dog for my lifestyle. But if there isn't one I want at a shelter or rescue I don't see why I shouldn't go elsewhere. (and yes we did just adopt a BC from a rescue)

I know people who have and LOVE their doodles. Just as much as I love my JRTs. Why am I more worthy of having the dog of my dreams and they are not?
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  #23  
Old 08-31-2008, 09:12 AM
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you miss the point...

there is no perfect dog for everyone...which is actually what MOST of the DD people will claim they are doing. That is a fact...there is no perfect dog for everyone.

There are however plenty of perfect dogs for people in various situations already HERE. There is no new niche...that I have ever been able to find that needs filling.

If you know of one...do tell. Small and quiet? Plenty....non shedding? plenty...calm and family friendly? plenty.

So again..why give the public MORE choices to then throw out when it is not convenient for them?

You know people who love their doodles...great...but how does that impact or in any way make better...the fact...yes fact that they are turning up over and over in shelters along side the "imperfect" black lab x's and nondescript gsd x's? hmm?
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  #24  
Old 08-31-2008, 09:43 AM
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I don't see why doodles or any other type of dog turning up in shelters has to do with responsible breeders. I think we can all find iffy things about the breeder posted, but they say they want their dogs back at any time. If they screen like their application says, and if the buyers adhere to the contract as far as giving the dog back, then they shouldn't end up in shelters. So on this grain of thought, since labs show up in shelters all the time, we need no more good breeders of them? Yeah, we get labradoodles in the shelter sometimes, but not much more than any other mid-popularity large breed dog.

I personally see no wrong in creating a breed that is *slightly* different than what we have so long as it is done responsibly. Of course with most mixes nowadays they are the product of a greedy breeder/miller and you cannot find any decent breeders out there. I can't count how many ridiculous first generation crossbreds that are bred with just money in mind. But those are not what Dekka is talking about. Labradoodles in particular are a different situation than your jugs and pekepoos and schnoodles, etc...

How different must a breed be before it is deemed acceptable to create? Yeah, small, cute and fluffy with a friendly disposition exists, but there are slight differences. There are plenty of breeds out there that are just narrowly different from another especially in function. Why must there be a totally novel niche? The niche could just be a slightly different temperament in a different coat type. If you look at companion breeds, they're all bred for the same reasons- to be a companion. They all do this slightly different and they all look different (some marginally so anyways). You could say, small, lively, companion oriented bred and find several to fit the bill. Which one 'deserves' to be there? I guess the first one? Nevermind the fact that a chin and a papillon could both be that but they're not the same.

And of course, I think companionship is a great reason to create a breed. Most people want a dog for companion reasons. They don't want a working dog, and in many cases it'd be better to get a dog that wasn't bred with that in mind, especially for JQP. I don't think companionship is ever going to stop being a valid reason for creating breeds, especially as we go through time and dogs do less and less work for the average person.

Even saying that, I know a lot of guide dog doodles that do their jobs very well.
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  #25  
Old 08-31-2008, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
To play devils advocate...

Why? Cute with a good temperament and healthy is basically all the general public cares about. One of the reasons there are so many unadopted dogs in shelters and such is that they are the ones the 'public' doesn't want.

Toys were all created to be cute companion dogs. Why is ok for people to do it 100 years ago and not now?
If I'd lived hundreds of years ago, I would have been against shrinking down the poodle just like I'm against "miniature dalmatians" and "pocket German shepherds." But since I live here and now, where mini and toy poodles already exist as established breeds, I have no problem with breeders continuing and preserving the breeds. They are cute and make great companions. That still makes "miniature Great Pyrenees" a terrible idea.

We all know "because it's cute" is why many BYBers breed. IMO, adding "and we want to have a standard" does not make it any more acceptable. My lab/border collie mix was a great dog and I'm sure if I picked up enough lab/border collies and bred enough generations I could establish a breed with a great temperament, less energetic than a lab and more active than a border collie, with typical body coloration (black) and features. Or I could just go pick up a labrador mix with an energy level that fits my lifestyle.

If "the puppies will be adorable" is reason enough to breed--with no conformation or performance to back it up--it seems to me that every BYB who does health clearances (and there are some) has as much justification to breed as this labradoodle breeder.
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:14 PM
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I think the question didn't have a whole lot to do with if Labradoodles should be bred or not- this seemed more of a review of the breeder herself.

So to the original question/statment. She seems like a BYB to me.
She breeds for no overall purpose, other than cute puppies. She's done nothing with her little Doodle mixes. She is not even aiming for a breed type to better her mixed breed. If she is wanting this to become a REAL breed, why isn't she going for some sort of standard?

To add to it, she has purebred dogs that she claims have Champions in there lines, however she has done nothing with her purebred Poodles. Why not? Lets say they were not up to bar to be shown, why would she breed them? What kind of "goal" is she going for if she is breeding a Poodle that isn't up to bar, if this is the case? It's also sad that she has these Champion lined Poodles, but she doesn't have the pedigree to show it. And honestly, do you REALLY believe that a good Poodle shower breeder would hand over a puppy to a woman who is going to breed it with a labrador? Sorry, don't think so :/

One of the reasons I was told that a Newf breeder I was looking at was bad was because of her frequent breeding. This is the case here too, isn't it?

And my opinion on the breeding of Doodles:
+Dogs that do not shed is an extremely lousy excuse for breeding becuase there are MANY dogs who are suitable for people with allergies out there.
+Therapy dogs might be a really good thing, however, there is NO shortage of good Goldens or Labs for this. It would be the people who are willing to train and give up the dog, rather than the dog itself. And as of yet, I've never seen a doodle breeder who breeds for therapy dogs. And even if they did, why would they be selling puppies to public? Wouldn't there goal be to breed and train their own, or even better, sell to trainers themselves? And by the time a puppy would fail the test to see if they are fit as a therapy dog- they would be more than 9-12 weeks So there shouldn't BE any young puppies to be sold to the public.
+Yes, every breed came from a mix. Let's act surprised! However, I firmly stand by every breed being bred for a purpose. Yes, Toy breeds were bred way back when for companionship. So now that we have all of these breeds for Companionship PLUS now we use working dogs, herding dogs, sporting dogs, terrier dogs as companions- why do we need more? And way back when, all of the working, herding, sporting, terrier, etc breeds were actually needed and used therefore people wanted a companion type dog. So yeah, back then, it did make sense

Just my opinion, as always
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  #27  
Old 08-31-2008, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
Poodles come in tiny to huge..are they not a real breed? What about schnauzers? They come in many sizes too. One of the main reasons JRT breed standard is not acceptable to kennel clubs is that 10-15 inches is way to large range for a small dog with only one type. Personally I am ok with that.
Oh no, that wasn't my point. I could be wrong, but as far as I am aware Labradoodles are supposed to be a medium to large size breed of dog, with large preferred. Since they were originally developed as service dogs, I thought small sizes are not desirable. If I'm wrong about that, and all sizes are acceptable, I retract the statement that dogs of vastly different sizes isn't a Labradoodle trait.
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  #28  
Old 08-31-2008, 09:56 PM
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I am not sure...

How many breeders of companion dogs do things (other than conformation which is not an option with doodles) with their dogs. Granted some do, and most should. BUT in breeds designed to be companions IMO it is great if they have titles, but not necessary.

And just a thought. Who would sell a top show prospect (the poodle ring is VERY competative) to someone who will cross breed? AND who is to say that a top conformation dog is the best dog to cross to? Maybe they went with the most health tested and mentally stable lines over the top show lines? (maybe they didn't)

I just hate how people hear 'doodle' and seem to be ready to go to bat. I don't buy the 'we have enough dogs in shelters now'. That is number of dogs, not number of breeds. It is a bad breeder issue, not a bad breed issue.

I personally don't want a doodle, I think they look kinda funny but I think people who want a nice doodle should be able to go to a good breeder and, if they qualify, get one.

Why are 'minature' breeds wrong? I am sure that many toy owners are very glad there are toys out there. (the man making the mini dals is soo corrupt.. but once again, bad breeder issue, not bad breed issue) I love mini aussies, sorry north american shepards. I think they are great dogs that fill a niche.
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  #29  
Old 08-31-2008, 10:04 PM
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I'm NOT saying they're wrong! I was just saying that to my knowledge they do not fit the breed's original purpose, Dekka, and if that is the case, yes I have a problem with them breeding the smallest ones.
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  #30  
Old 08-31-2008, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by corgi_love View Post
And my opinion on the breeding of Doodles:
+Dogs that do not shed is an extremely lousy excuse for breeding becuase there are MANY dogs who are suitable for people with allergies out there.
+Therapy dogs might be a really good thing, however, there is NO shortage of good Goldens or Labs for this. It would be the people who are willing to train and give up the dog, rather than the dog itself. And as of yet, I've never seen a doodle breeder who breeds for therapy dogs. And even if they did, why would they be selling puppies to public? Wouldn't there goal be to breed and train their own, or even better, sell to trainers themselves? And by the time a puppy would fail the test to see if they are fit as a therapy dog- they would be more than 9-12 weeks So there shouldn't BE any young puppies to be sold to the public.
+Yes, every breed came from a mix. Let's act surprised! However, I firmly stand by every breed being bred for a purpose. Yes, Toy breeds were bred way back when for companionship. So now that we have all of these breeds for Companionship PLUS now we use working dogs, herding dogs, sporting dogs, terrier dogs as companions- why do we need more? And way back when, all of the working, herding, sporting, terrier, etc breeds were actually needed and used therefore people wanted a companion type dog. So yeah, back then, it did make sense

Just my opinion, as always
Okay, first of all, we're talking guide/service dogs, not therapy dogs. In any guide dog program there are tons of washouts no matter the breed. Some don't make it to the puppy raisers at all, many wash out after that at the first training. Before doodles came along, guide dog breeding programs were already crossing breeds. Many times they'd cross goldens and labs just depending on what cross they'd deem most successful. There is a niche for a less shedding guide dog. I realize many doodles shed but many do not shednearly as bad as a lab. (Have you ever had a lab? They're terrible shedders.) If you talk to guide dog people poodles just don't work. I'm not too informed on why but the lab personality seems to fit the bill for the job much better.

Yes, I know of a doodle breeder that breeds for guide dogs primarily. Her dogs are seen all around here as she donates them to a guide dog organization who has puppy raisers on campus. I actually ran into one of her dogs today, a charming big white doodle who is nearly done with his handler and going off to advance training. I've known quite a few of these dogs and they're all fabulous, stable animals. I hear horror stories of doodles, but I never see that with these dogs.

Also, I think for people who have never owned a companion breed that it is important to realize that companion bred dogs (ie breeds designed with companionship, not work as the primary goal) will be a different kind of companion than a working breed. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but they relate to their people differently than other breeds. I could see a big niche particularly for larger companion type breeds.

To me it's not a breed issue at all. I really don't care what you breed or why so long as the breeder is A) honest about their practices, B) is striving to breed sound dogs in both health and temperament, C) has some sort of a breeding goal, D) is restrictive about what to use in their programs (not just throwing poodle with whatever), and D) will take back their pups, screen adopters well, and have a spay/neuter contract.
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