Very interesting article. What do you guys think?

[Boemy]

Oh yeah, alpha rolls are definitely a terrible idea. Whether wolves roll other wolves forcefully them or not (I don't know if they do), it is just a terrible idea.

Even if you're a wolf, being too forceful is not a good idea. One night Wolf 40 tried to kill her sister 42's puppies--this was after already killing a previous litter of 42's and also killing Wolf 26's puppies--the pack turned on her and ripped her to pieces. 42, who was previously a beta wolf (and horribly harried by 40), unexpectedly became the new alpha female and was much more . . . moderate . . . than her sister had been. Wolf politics are complex.

Getting back to that article, I agree with some points and disagree on others. Dogs may not be "pure" pack animals, but they sure act like pack animals more than cats. It's generally less tiresome to introduce two dogs than two cats, who will be spitting "Die! Die! Die!" at each other for weeks.

The "going through doorway" thing . . . The was started by Cesar Milan, wasn't it? And it's stupid. I don't know about that man.

"If you give dogs chew toys, they’ll learn to chew everything." I've never heard of that one before. That's pretty ridiculous. A dog who wants to chew is going to chew on SOMETHING, better if that something is a chew toy rather than your furniture.

[Dekka]

Dogs are more of a social creature than cats (though domestic cats ARE considered social animals). And more gregarious.

Just like feral cats don't form in to prides, feral/pariah dogs don't form into packs. Both can still live in social communities but not form the same social ties as their wild counter parts.

[youhavenoidea]

Originally Posted by Dekka

If you want to do agility you might want to reconsider. A co-operative reward is one of the best ways to reward your dog. Tug is likely the 1# most effective reward for training agility. It keeps YOU as part of the reward. Many agility people work VERY hard to teach their dogs to tug. Just from my experience with my own dogs, those that tug for a reward are much easier to train than those who work for food or a thrown toy (a thrown toy removes you from the reward)

I know what you mean, and have seen many an agility handler hang their dog on the end of a toy as a reward.

I believe in "never say never". However, given that Slade is about the least toy-driven dog in the world, but thrives on touch, I predict that he'll be the dog that'll do just fine with mondo praise, major patting / brief roughhousing, and excitedly bounding around. Which makes me / my attention THE reward, not just part of it. Just the kind of dog he is.

I'm also not very quick to feel like treats or toys need to be involved at all in an effective reward (and no, I'm not "anti-treat-training") because of all my years training horses. You can't very well jump off a horse's back to offer him a treat, or his jolly ball to play with every time he's blazed his butt around a jumpoff to score you 1st place, or every time he performs a desired behavior during training . . . but the praise that you verbally and physically lavish upon him goes a LONG way.

I'm not ridiculously opposed to the tug idea as a training / reward tool, but we'll see.

[Dekka]

Thats true. But Dekka was not into toys much as a pup, and Kaiden wouldn't even look a toy. We had to build toy drive.

[youhavenoidea]

Originally Posted by Dekka

Thats true. But Dekka was not into toys much as a pup, and Kaiden wouldn't even look a toy. We had to build toy drive.

I need to at the very least build ball-drive, so that he'll actually chase one! It would be a nice tool to have to burn off steam if ever necessary!

Though, honestly, especially for his breed, he's soooooo laid back, that I've never actually prayed for an outlet - he just kind of goes with the flow. When it's play time, he'll go like a bat out of hell and have a blast, but if it's relax time, or I've been sick and cooped up for a few days at a time (or like this week, ALL WEEK), he'll be perfectly content to just wrestle around with Thor and watch TV with me. I really can't complain.

[Dekka]

That is pretty typical puppy. Balls are ok rewards, BUT they remove YOU from the reward process. Once you throw the ball, its the dog having a great time with the ball. Its not interactive.

Ball reward is all I have with Kaiden. If I had known what I do now I would have worked harder on teaching a tug.

[mrose_s]

Originally Posted by Dekka

Lets say people took you out to where you could only see MIBB from a great distance. Every time you spotted one your friends smiled and passed you fifties. You might feel a little nervous but like the money so you start looking for MIBB cause they mean money!

Then the money only comes when you are a little closer to the MIBB etc etc.

Hey Dekka, I have a fear of MIBB, wanna be my smiling friend handing me fifties?

[mrose_s]

Dekka, I just went out and did some agility stuff with Buster with his tug instead of food. I'm sold If I drop the tug I don't loose it in the grass and have the smell distract him is one good point, plus he seems more driven but more willing to listen instead of running around like a looney.

He's always loved his tug but I havn't used it much in his training because it takes a couple of minutes before hand to get him "into it"

[youhavenoidea]

Originally Posted by Dekka

That is pretty typical puppy. Balls are ok rewards, BUT they remove YOU from the reward process. Once you throw the ball, its the dog having a great time with the ball. Its not interactive.

Ball reward is all I have with Kaiden. If I had known what I do now I would have worked harder on teaching a tug.

The only thing I want the ball for is fetch in the back yard. But with one of those plastic flinger thingers. So I don't have to keep manhandling the slimy ball. Ew! LOL

[HoundedByHounds]

Generalizations are not my favorite...the pack theory stuff they are I guess attempting to debunk? works in some breeds and in some households...and is needed in some breeds/households.

Dominance matters...to some dogs, and some breeds...and they will actually...make their point in a serious way, if the home or owner lacks the ability to keep things structured and their roles defined.

So...in regards to pack theory being bunk and not applicable...nope not in my experience. Not all dog breeds...are "distant" from wolves, and neither is their behavior.

Those are my thoughts...