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  #31  
Old 08-06-2008, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Boemy View Post
I've been thinking about this more . . . Isn't this exactly the same as BYBing because "my dog is [so cute, so sweet, the best dog ever]"? Only instead of breeding dogs in the traditional sense, they're cloning them. They're still producing dogs without health testing and with no conformation history. It's great that her dog was brave and saved her life once, but I question whether that alone is a reason to breed.
Well, only sort of. The goal is to create one animal that is a duplicate . . . so its not exactly the same as "breeding." The extras are sort of the collateral damage from the process. So, in sense, its creating more dogs with no health testing, confirmation history or performance history. On the other hand, it is less of a crap shoot, because you've seen what that combination of genes has doen previously . . . and the intention is a little different.

Frankly, I don't approve of it for reasons that are much more fundamental than a resemblance the BYB's so . . . shrug.
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  #32  
Old 08-06-2008, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Boemy View Post
I've been thinking about this more . . . Isn't this exactly the same as BYBing because "my dog is [so cute, so sweet, the best dog ever]"? Only instead of breeding dogs in the traditional sense, they're cloning them. They're still producing dogs without health testing and with no conformation history. It's great that her dog was brave and saved her life once, but I question whether that alone is a reason to breed.
As long as she is taking responsibility for the puppies' welfare, I don't see it that way. A byb breeder typically does it to turn a profit. And this..well...it's kind of the opposite.

She does plan to keep three, and donate the other two to service dog orgs. I can't imagine that she would dump the those two at the pound or leave them in the woods to fend for themselves if they don't pan out as service dog prospects.
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  #33  
Old 08-07-2008, 12:19 AM
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Did anyone of you hear the NPR All Things Considered story about the cloned bull? Priceless. They cloned him bc he was exceptionally gentle and they all loved him. His clone was mean and gored everyone.
:P. Not suprised.
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  #34  
Old 08-07-2008, 12:53 AM
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To answer the question about blazes . . . no, animal markings are not exclusively controled by genes . . . they are effected by womb enviroment and epigenetic factors such as gene activation. This is why cc looks nothing like her calico mother and why the Missy clones have slightly different markings.
Thanks for the info- I had no idea. Makes you wonder about breeders who worry about how much white is on the chest of a dog. Maybe you better look at the whole line to see what your odds are for that cropping up in the pups Not that I care. But a lot of people make their breeding decisions like this, it would be good if they had accurate info.

And, as far as cloning being like BYB, I get the point in this case. Producing 5 lives seems excessive and likely to result in some (just as nice) shelter dogs not finding homes.

But, what about purpose bred dogs- police, service, SAR, detection, herding, etc. If we could clone the very best (and if this resulted in a higher percentage of workable adults) this would result in far fewer dogs produced. Right now the number of puppies produced far exceeds the number who end up being suitable for the task. All the excess flood the pet market or end up in shelters or euthanized. I think I'd be all for cloning in this case. What do you think? Any disadvantages?
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  #35  
Old 08-07-2008, 01:42 AM
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Thanks for the info- I had no idea. Makes you wonder about breeders who worry about how much white is on the chest of a dog. Maybe you better look at the whole line to see what your odds are for that cropping up in the pups Not that I care. But a lot of people make their breeding decisions like this, it would be good if they had accurate info.

And, as far as cloning being like BYB, I get the point in this case. Producing 5 lives seems excessive and likely to result in some (just as nice) shelter dogs not finding homes.

But, what about purpose bred dogs- police, service, SAR, detection, herding, etc. If we could clone the very best (and if this resulted in a higher percentage of workable adults) this would result in far fewer dogs produced. Right now the number of puppies produced far exceeds the number who end up being suitable for the task. All the excess flood the pet market or end up in shelters or euthanized. I think I'd be all for cloning in this case. What do you think? Any disadvantages?
There is a big disadvantage to cloning, cost aside.

We all have protein caps on the ends of our dna strands. Throughout our lives, each and every time the dna strand is duplicated to make a new cell, that protein cap degenerates. This degeneration is very closely connected to aging. It is thought that if we could figure out a way to regenerate the protein caps, we could effectively, be immortal. Barring any traumatic injury of course.

When an organism is cloned, the parent dna has already been "aged", meaning it's already been depleted by however long the donor parent has been alive. This was the problem with Dolly the sheep. Her "mother" was already four years old when she was cloned, so Dolly was effectively four years old when she was born. I mean, she was an infant, but as a young adult she had all the issues a four year old ewe could be expected to have because the dna caps had already been depleted by four years worth of replications, and she had about 4 years taken off her life expectancy.

This could be an issue with cloning working animals, as by the time they have proven themselves to be worthy of cloning, they are already several years old.

My other concern would be our gene pool for working dogs. If the majority of our working dogs were clones, what would happen to our lines of working dogs?
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  #36  
Old 08-07-2008, 02:51 AM
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I honestly much prefer the surprise of breeding
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  #37  
Old 08-07-2008, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romy View Post
There is a big disadvantage to cloning, cost aside.

We all have protein caps on the ends of our dna strands. Throughout our lives, each and every time the dna strand is duplicated to make a new cell, that protein cap degenerates. This degeneration is very closely connected to aging. It is thought that if we could figure out a way to regenerate the protein caps, we could effectively, be immortal. Barring any traumatic injury of course.

When an organism is cloned, the parent dna has already been "aged", meaning it's already been depleted by however long the donor parent has been alive. This was the problem with Dolly the sheep. Her "mother" was already four years old when she was cloned, so Dolly was effectively four years old when she was born. I mean, she was an infant, but as a young adult she had all the issues a four year old ewe could be expected to have because the dna caps had already been depleted by four years worth of replications, and she had about 4 years taken off her life expectancy.

This could be an issue with cloning working animals, as by the time they have proven themselves to be worthy of cloning, they are already several years old.

My other concern would be our gene pool for working dogs. If the majority of our working dogs were clones, what would happen to our lines of working dogs?

LOL I read this thread to make the comment about telomeres and aging. And how if you clone a 6 year old dog, the pups start out with 6 year old DNA and 6 years of degraded telomeres. Go you for beating me too it ! (yes there are other parts to aging-but telomeres are a big part of it)

The only time I agree with cloning is for extenuating circumstances to reintroduce exceptional bloodlines. Ei Scamper was the worlds top barrel racing horse...10 times! But he was gelded before anyone knew his extreme talent. They cloned him (and no his markings are not the same) to breed http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/15738839/. His telomeres might be prematurely shortened, but his sperm cells are just fine. People are now cloning racehorses. Its cheaper to clone in some cases than breed!
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  #38  
Old 08-07-2008, 09:55 AM
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Thanks again for the info! I guess we'd better be taking DNA sample when our future super stars are babies
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  #39  
Old 08-07-2008, 10:09 AM
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No matter how much I love Bronki and Mary would i do such a thing. NOt when so many are being put down, no matter what the lines, for any reason. I would not know Victor, i would not know Pepper. I don't think it is right at all, it sickens me.
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  #40  
Old 08-07-2008, 07:30 PM
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As long as she is taking responsibility for the puppies' welfare, I don't see it that way. A byb breeder typically does it to turn a profit. And this..well...it's kind of the opposite.

She does plan to keep three, and donate the other two to service dog orgs. I can't imagine that she would dump the those two at the pound or leave them in the woods to fend for themselves if they don't pan out as service dog prospects.

Wouldn't that be the same as the BYBer who breeds her chihuahua and keep the two puppies (if there are only two) because "she wants a dog just like Maizy", though? Not all BYBs sell dogs, some just breed "to show the children the miracle of birth" or for whatever reason and give puppies to their relatives.

On a completely different note, here is a picture of one of the surrogate mothers. She looks too thin to me . . .

http://rnl.co.kr/eng/pr/images/engnews_20080805.jpg
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