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  #31  
Old 08-23-2008, 11:22 AM
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ttwillow ttwillow is offline
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I dont really know any of the breeders on this board, I have not been visiting here long enough to know any. I was not addressing any specific breeders that visit this board during this thread post. I am addressing the _______ who decided to bred their dogs at a show.

Breeding dogs at a show is far from being reputable. It is deplorable. It smacks of BYB and PM mentality. Those folks ARE subhuman in my opinion. They do hoard, are control freaks, are thinking only of the money, etc. I HAVE closed my mind to them. I dont think of them as being human. They are a major part of the problem. Because of them shelters and rescues are fighting an uphill battle.

I place reputable breeders in the company of folks like T Edison, B Franklin, Will Rogers and such greats of the past. It takes a great deal of study and dedication, huge amounts of money, morals and ethics to be a reputable breeder. Reputable breeders dont get there just by saying they are reputable. I will not be spoon fed by any advertisements or claims. Words are cheap...I want to see what the reputable breeders actions are.

I hope more reputable breeders are developed in the future. I think just because you can breed dogs does not mean you should. Infact it should be the other way around. To

I am of the mind you prove you are reputable in your actions, in your breeding practices, (certainly not breeding in a public place like a dog show) by producing dogs accurate to your breeds standard, that are genetically healthy with sound temperments and by each litter you plan and breed for is improving upon your breed.

If any of these are lacking in your litter then you need to sit down and figure out why before proceeding and producing more dogs that need good homes. There are too many homeless dogs being killed every minute of everyday for the reputable breeder to be any less than what I have written above. If they are doing it for the love of the dog, I do not see how they can disagree with anything I have written?
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  #32  
Old 08-23-2008, 12:09 PM
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Have you even read the replies in this thread? There have been a number of people, reputable breeders even by YOUR standards, that have said, while tacky, it's not a subhuman thing to do in the general sense. Perhaps this time falls under one of those headings of yours but not every person who arranges a breeding at a show is a greedy subhuman puppymill hoarder. Part of being a responsible breeder is using the best lines you can find and sometimes, the only way to get a live cover is to arrange one at a show. AI has it's pros and cons.
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  #33  
Old 08-23-2008, 12:15 PM
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Breeding dogs in a public area at a dog show, or any place else, is tacky. That has been stated and agreed with many times on this thread.

I have witnessed breedings at dog shows. Quite a few in fact. None in a public place, all agreed upon before hand, with contract and agreement in place.

Just because a breeding happens AT a dog show does not make it a bad one, nor does it make the owners of the dogs irresponsible.
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  #34  
Old 08-23-2008, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttwillow View Post
I dont really know any of the breeders on this board, I have not been visiting here long enough to know any.
No, but you've been here long enough to condemn a few of them. If I might make a suggestion, take some time out of your day and start visiting some of the links that many of us provide right in our signatures. You might just get to see some breeders & other reputable breed people that would restore your faith in humanity. Until you get to know them, withhold judgement.
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  #35  
Old 08-23-2008, 12:29 PM
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We do agree with you here. Although, I'll note, that the requirements you give are actually LESS than most of us demand of reputable breeders! (exception being the standard, because of issues with working and show lines, but that's another discussion). But your 2%-3% is a massive underestimation of the number of people who furfill the requirements you gave. You shouldn't be taken in by advertisements or claims that's true, . . . they are often lies, and we know that. You have a very negative view of breeders in general, coming from where you come from. But there are far more reputable, and just decent, breeders out there than you think . . . you just don't hear from them much at shelters, because their dogs don't end up there!

You also have to understand that dog owners of our stripe, whether breeders or not, feel under attack ourselves. We are blamed for the dog overpopulation problem, for acts of cruelty, for the pervisities of some show owners . . . and we did not cause any of these things. We struggle against them as well. But we are the ones: the small, responsible breeders, the working dog owners, even the dog lovers who have a number of pets, who are the first to get nailed by legislation intended to "protect" dogs. Not only does it often do the dogs no good, it hurts many dog lovers and responsible breeders. So, if we bristle, that's why. In fact, one thing that makes me really sick is that all the "anti-breeding" legislation excepts "Commerical breeders" that is, puppy millers. Sure, the worse puppy millers are nailed (they are already breaking the law) but most of the millers who sell to pet stores are USDA approved, and safe. Meanwhile, the responsbile breeders, the law abiding breeders, are crucified. You might nail some BYBS, but in the end, that's all you've done. You've put the good people out of business, excepted the millers, and the BYBs and mills with no regard for the law just go further underground. So if we are touchy about being grouped with those people, about statements like yours, its because they are used to destroy us, or the breeders we associate with, or even take away our pets. They justify these laws . . . and, its not true. Its ALOT more than 2-3% especially with the definition you gave.

Just as an example, my father took in beagles from a very old, respected, well-bred pack. That was the entire pack. He took them in because an "animal welfare" law was passed in the jurisdicton the kennel was in that made it funcitonally illegal to have a pack of hounds there. The hounds had be given away, or destroyed. Dad took them, and expanded the kennel to do it. Did that law help those hounds? Did it stop the BYBs and mills? No, but it destroyed a very respected pack of working dogs, owned by very responsible people. If my father hadn't been in the area, I'm not sure what would have happened. No one MEANT to wipe out that pack, but that's the way the law was written. By conicidence, Dad lives over the county line . . . otherwise, it would have been him as well, and two of the best packs in the country would have disappeared, along with a long standing tradition of hunting, superb hunting lines, and a whole clique of hound lovers who also do their part. It didn't stop the milling, the BYBing, the dog fighting. That kept going, it went underground, it slipped though loopholes. But it destroyed a responsible breeder, and pack hunting beagles almost never leave the hobby anyway, so those dogs weren't ending up in shelters . . . though they might have if another beagler hadn't stepped in. That's my personal anecdote. But I hope you get my point . .. statements like that are not only false, they are harmful.


As for breeding at a show, I think everyone thought that doing so in public was tacky, that this mating was a bad idea. Many of us, including me, think that showing a bitch in heat is a bad idea, though I can see the other side of it, after all these things don't always happen as planned! It would be a shame to miss a big show because of it .. . but I don't think I'd do it.

However, I will conceed that bringing a bitch in heat with you to a show (and keeping her off the actual show grounds) to meet a top notch dog for a breeding because its the best way to get both dogs in the same place at the same time, considerng the price of gas and air travel, not to mention the cargo issue, is something I'd not thought of, but strikes me as perfectly reasonable, assuming you keep the bitch AWAY from other dogs and its a breeding that you were planning on. Otherwise, how else to get the best dogs and bitches together? My dog is a spayed mutt, but even if she were a grand champion purebred, I'd never fly her somewhere unless there was absolutely no other choice. Meeting the dog at a show sounds like a good way to get them together to get the best litter possible.

But this . . . it was tacky, the bitch's owners were highly questionable, it does not seem to be planned ahead of time, and I think the owners of studs should be very picky about who they allow their dog to mount, because otherwise THEIR name and reputation will be linked to a shameful operation.
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  #36  
Old 08-23-2008, 12:46 PM
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Lilivati, at AKC shows, it is normal to show bitches in season. It is not looked at as unusual at all. I would say in my breed in a larger entry there is probably ALWAYS one or two bitches present in season being exhibited.

The only time a bitch being in season would keep me from showing is if I plan to breed her on the season in question. I stay far away from dog events for weeks before any planned breeding to avoid exposing my bitch to anything she might bring home with her.

One also does not go near the working rings, or show a bitch in season at a trial. Generally you can get an entry fee refund if your bitch comes in after you send in entries.

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  #37  
Old 08-23-2008, 12:49 PM
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Yeah, showing a bitch in season is no big deal at all. Some bitches seem to plan it out and come in season every time you can get to a major... I guess that's why they call them bitches.
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  #38  
Old 08-23-2008, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedyreRottweilers View Post
Lilivati, at AKC shows, it is normal to show bitches in season. It is not looked at as unusual at all. I would say in my breed in a larger entry there is probably ALWAYS one or two bitches present in season being exhibited.

The only time a bitch being in season would keep me from showing is if I plan to breed her on the season in question. I stay far away from dog events for weeks before any planned breeding to avoid exposing my bitch to anything she might bring home with her.

One also does not go near the working rings, or show a bitch in season at a trial. Generally you can get an entry fee refund if your bitch comes in after you send in entries.


Well, you see, I learn something new every day! It just strikes me as something that would be disruptive . .. but I guess if there's no problem, then there's no problem. We did some comfirmation showing, but I was small then, so I'm more used to working events . . .where it would be very disruptive.
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  #39  
Old 08-23-2008, 01:04 PM
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Yes, most entry forms for trials state clearly that bitches in season are not allowed. At certain types of working events, they even allow bitches in season, but will hold them until the very last so that they don't disrupt or distract other dogs who are working.

AKC obedience and working events never allow bitches in season. In fact I think most entry forms to AKC trials state that "No bitches in season allowed, nor any bitches who may be so attractive to other male dogs as to be disruptive". So this would cover a bitch who may be having a silent heat unknown to her owner. Bitches can also smell very attractive to males for other reasons. UTIs tend to generate a lot of interest for some reason.

If I am showing a bitch who is in, I do not take her ringside until just before I am showing. (dogs show before bitches). So the only dogs who will be competing after bitches have been in the ring are the Specials and the WD.

I then keep a discreet distance from other male dogs, and inform any male dog handlers nearby that my bitch is "in". You also will inform the judge as s/he approaches your dog that your girl is in season.

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  #40  
Old 08-23-2008, 03:09 PM
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What about other bitches? Now I'm curious. Because of the waiting list, Sarama went into heat before she was spayed, and boy, did she HATE other bitches while she was in . . . they hated her too.
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