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  #11  
Old 07-09-2008, 11:14 AM
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If the pug walks by when someone has food, she goes after the pug.
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Originally Posted by yilduz View Post
It's kind of strange, though. Athena never goes after the pug when she knows the food belongs to the pug. She never goes after the other dog's bowl. When I feed them, I prepare their bowls while they sit in the living room. When I'm finished I call the pug in and have her speak, shake, and all that stuff, then give her the bowl. Athena never does anything to her. After that I take Athena's bowl into the laundry room and set it down. I walk back into the kitchen, standing in front of the laundry room door. I call Athena over, she rushes to me and sits down. I have her speak and shake and wait and all that stuff. Then she's allowed to get her food. I close the door behind her and she barks when she's done and wants out. By that time the pug is always finished.

<snip>

She also knows to leave a room when there is a person eating.
OK, so if she knows to leave a room when someone's eating, and yet she goes after the pug when someone walks by with food, there's something missing in the training here.

Can you give a little more detail on these two situations?

The training sounds like it's been good so far.
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  #12  
Old 07-09-2008, 11:16 AM
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Then don't. An e-collar is NOT the way to handle to this situation and someone who would immediately jump to that conclusion doesn't need to be handing out training advice.

This sounds like a managable problem. Between a search on here and finding a trainer to help you with some of the real-life stuff (we obviously can't see body language), you should be fine. Am I right in reading that this happens when someone walks by with any food at all, or just when it's feeding time for the dogs?
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  #13  
Old 07-09-2008, 12:17 PM
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putting an ecollar on a dog with fear issues seems stupid and reckless to me.

i have a dog with some food guarding issues toward other dogs. he eats in his crate. he's not allowed to hover around me when i have food. if they get good bones to chew, he gets crated. he has never shown any kind of aggression toward me. he is not food aggressive toward humans because he eats and chews yummies in his crate. that's just all nonsense.

i think working with a trainer in person is going to be the most straight-forward way of approaching this. crating dogs separately to eat and when people have food and teaching dogs a go to place command (whether that be a mat, crate, special spot on the floor, whatever) are excellent management tools, but i think teaching the dog that it is OK if other dogs are around and there is food is what you need longterm, and i think that's an awfully hard thing to figure out how to do from reading on the internet.
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  #14  
Old 07-09-2008, 12:29 PM
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I agree with elegy's response. It's certainly an issue that you need to deal with, but at the same time, it's one that can easily be avoided by keeping the dogs separated while eating. I don't think the aggression will transfer over to humans simply because you crate the dog while eating. For that matter, you don't even need to crate, just keep the pug out of the room.

I have 4 dogs who are raw fed- very high value items which causes them to want to defend their food more than if it was kibble. Our pug Bruzer will get so uptight if he's got a bone in his crate that any animal coming within 6' of the crate will cause him to stop eating it and growl with increasing ferocity, until we remove the other dog or the cat from his line of vision. I feed the 4 of them outdoors most of the time, and it's a delicate balance to get them all eating without scrapping going on. Gunnar and Daisy are led out 1st, they are both put in sit/stays and their bowls placed in front of them. Then they are released to eat. While they are eating, Bruzer and Buzz are brought out and they do the same thing. Gunnar and Daisy are at least 10' apart, and the little guys are 20' from the 2 big ones. Then I play referree to keep Daisy from gobbling up her food then running over and stealing the little dog's food. None of them mess with Gunnar and he doesn't mess with anyone else after he's eaten so we're cool on that front. My point is, this isn't an end of the world issue, there are easy ways to work around the problem if you are consistent and watchful.
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  #15  
Old 07-09-2008, 08:22 PM
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putting an ecollar on a dog with fear issues seems stupid and reckless to me.
what is this dog in question fearing ? I missed it.
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  #16  
Old 07-09-2008, 08:28 PM
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being afraid of anything that moves or makes noise
that kind of fearfulness in a pit bull is not normal. i would not use any kind of punitive measures with a dog who is already that insecure about the world.
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  #17  
Old 07-09-2008, 08:32 PM
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Dogs who do resource guarding do it because they are afraid someone is going to take their resource. It's an instinctual behavior - wild animals, carnivores expecially, have to really work hard to get their meal, and they don't want to give it up. To me it's shocking that more dogs are not resource guarders, and I try to treat every dog like he could start guarding.
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  #18  
Old 07-09-2008, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by corgipower View Post
OK, so if she knows to leave a room when someone's eating, and yet she goes after the pug when someone walks by with food, there's something missing in the training here.

Can you give a little more detail on these two situations?

The training sounds like it's been good so far.
Not people food. She isn't allowed near people when they're eating people food. What I meant was dog treats. When someone has a dog treat or she has a dog treat, and the pug walks by, she goes after the pug.

I shouldn't say she goes after the pug, though. It's only happened a couple of times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoom View Post
Then don't. An e-collar is NOT the way to handle to this situation and someone who would immediately jump to that conclusion doesn't need to be handing out training advice.

This sounds like a managable problem. Between a search on here and finding a trainer to help you with some of the real-life stuff (we obviously can't see body language), you should be fine. Am I right in reading that this happens when someone walks by with any food at all, or just when it's feeding time for the dogs?
She doesn't react that way if someone happens to walk by holding food. If someone walks by her with food, she either stares intently or leave the area (depending on whether the person is someone she thinks she could get food from or not - unless someone that knows she isn't allowed to be around is in the area).

It actually never happens during their eating time. Come to think of it, it only happens when treats are involved.

[hr]

As of today, while I was at work, Athena went after the pug again. Fortunately my girlfriend was right there and stopped Athena before she was able to injure the pug. It was a bit of a different situation this time, though. Athena smelled a cookie where the pug was eating it. At the time she went after the pug, the cookie was already gone. Now it almost seems like jealousy - but I don't think I'm ready to believe that. I still think it's food aggression.

My girlfriend's parents are on the other side of the country right now. They just left about a week ago and now the dogs are 100% in the care of my girlfriend and myself. They left because her father was offered a job over there. As soon as they have everything set up and settled in a place to live, they're taking the pug and the two cats with them, leaving Athena with us. The problem is that will be around a month from now. Today when they found out what happened, he wanted to have Athena put down, he was planning on calling the vet in the morning. I convinced him to give me a chance to work things out. He's giving me one day to come up with an arrangement to keep Athena away from the other animals until they're gone, and a way to break her of the problem. He told me that if I make it work, Athena will be mine; and if I can't, I won't have a choice, she'll be put down.

Right now, more importantly than anything, I need to figure out how to arrange all of this and find a way to work it out. She's a very good dog, with one problem.

I don't want to use a collar, because I don't want to see what happens if she goes after the pug again. I need to prevent it 100% of the time. I've decided that both dogs will not be out of their boxes at the same time, for any length of time, for any reason.

I think more than anything, I'm just trying to figure things out and sort everything by saying it. All of this just hit me in the past two hours, since I've been off work. I'm also looking for ideas, suggestions, etc. I know you guys don't know the dogs, house, land, situation, us, etc, but any general ideas will be appreciated. I've grown up with dogs my entire life, but I've never been as attached to a dog as I am to this one. I don't want to lose her and until this problem is resolved, it isn't my decision.
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  #19  
Old 07-09-2008, 11:11 PM
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Well, if they're still OK with the feeding set up you have, and since it's only for a month, I would say keep them separated.

I think you've done a great job with Athena and I truly hope they don't make you put her down.

If you want to work on the issue at hand - since it's only about treats - I would do a couple things - one is always make Athena perform for a treat - no freebies. Another thing I would do is train her to go to a place. For that matter train the pug to go to a place also - separate from Athena (in the next room or on the other side of the room). Then only give them treats on their respective places.

Also, when you feed, you feed the pug first. It could be that Athena leaves the pug alone because she knows she's getting her own bowl in her own place next and she's focused on that. When she's done eating and you let her out, the pug is done eating so there's no way to know what Athena would do if the pug still had food.

I need to think on that a bit.
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  #20  
Old 07-09-2008, 11:32 PM
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( This is the girlfriend, I am here to add, since I have known Athena since she was a pup.)

Athena was originally my brothers dog, and my brother pretty much dumped her on us while she was still a pup. She didn't show signs of any food aggressive behavior until she was maybe a year old, possibly a little younger, when our kitten (at that time) Bunny, walked by and Athena attacked her... Thats how Athena came to eat in the laundry room with the door closed.

She hasn't had any "meal time" aggression issues since then, the issues that have arisen in the recent past have all been related to snacks/cookies. The first time I had an issue with her was I put her in her crate to have a bone, and the pug walked by. Athena started growling and that was enough for me. I reached in and grabbed onto the bone to take it away, to show her that behavior was unacceptable. She growled louder and wouldn't let go, till I had to swat her mouth for her to open her jaw and took it away. I was scared but I tried really hard not to show it, and to stay the alpha dog.

Since my father has left, her behavior has slowly started to get worse, but I'll get to that soon...

The next instance, I wasn't present for. Yilduz had a bone, gave it to Athena, and Athena went to her box to have it, and when Pug-buddy walked by, Athena charged her and tore open her neck. Thankfully she didn't get any arteries and merely separated the skin from the flesh.

The dogs get cookies when they go to bed, or they go to their boxes for a prolonged period of time (i.e. when everyone is at work, or no one is in the room). Yesterday, my sister gave them their cookies with them not being in the boxes (foul move) and when Athena finished hers, she attacked the pug, giving her a nice shiner on her eye, and puncturing her neck.

Today, thankfully I was standing right between the two when it happened, and was able to physically lift Athena off the ground and remove her from the situation. I pushed her onto the ground and sat on her, pushing her head down away from me, as she was still in a very aggressive state, and was growling and snapping at me.

The part I am mildly worried about was, I had give the pug a fraction of a cookie maybe 25 minutes prior, for sitting still while I cleaned her eye out. Athena had been outside and oblivious to it all the entire time, and when she did come in, I let the pug out, Athena began sniffing around the living room intently where the pug had been eating her cookie. I kept getting her out of that state, calling her to me, and trying to get her to drop the idea of the cookie all together. The pug came in and Athena zoned right on her.

I think the problem is, my father has been at home all day every day for the past year or so. Athena has gotten used to having him here, and having him be alpha male. What we need to do is find a constructive way to break her of the thought as my FATHER as alpha, and replace it with ALL HUMANS. She needs to learn to submit no matter what.

Also something that might add a little to this or clarify, anything. My older brother, Peter, has a Pitbull. He and his wife drove out here a few months ago and brought their dog, Patches with. The second Patches was in the same room as Athena, Athena was submitting, rolling over on her back, cowering behind one of us, and seemed very submissive with her tail between her legs, licking and the whole bit to Patches.

Yilduz and I are thinking that until my mom comes to get the pug, we will bring Athena's crate upstairs into our room, get her a harness, and walk her everywhere. There will ALWAYS be one dog or the other in their kennel at all times, and Athena will have to be supervised at all times when she is out of her box.

Is there ANYTHING else anyone can add to this thought to help us, any suggestions? I KNOW Athena is a good dog, but I want to get her worked out of these behaviors before she grows into them too much. Right now we need to focus on what to do while the pug and other animals are still in the picture. Once they are gone, THEN we can deal with the re-training. Anything would be appreciated, thank you very much for all your help.
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