The Trainers Game

[adojrts]

Originally Posted by corgipower

OK...I'll start this party off.



Training a dog for schutzhund obedience. She was about 2 years old, a mix - aussie and rott, spayed, adopted from a shelter at about 8 months, very high prey drive.

She was solid on retrieving the dumbbell, she was solid on going over the schutzhund a-frame. She couldn't put the two together. When we attempted the retrieve over the a-frame, she would either go over the a-frame, get the dumbbell, come back to the a-frame and plant her butt on the ground at the base of it, or she would spit out the dumbbell and come back over the a-frame and sit in front of me.

Was the two behaviours trained separately? If not this what I would do.
Ok, from what I know about a Sch. A frame I don't believe it is possible to safely backchain as we know in agility.
I would train the the two behaviours separately. I would train each of these behaviours then put it all together. Send to frame to a target (target on the ground, food tube that the dog can't self reward but can be given a reward from. Restrained recall over frame to handler for a reward, then train the send over frame to target, recall to handler.
At that point I would then add the dumbbell, replacing the dumbbell at the target. I would also consider, having a second person there to hand her the dumbbell at first, then progressing to having it on the ground. Of course that is assuming that the dumbbell retrieve has also been trained first lol.

[adojrts]

^^^ forget the above post for the time being, its not complete and has too many holes in the training. I didn't give it enough thought before posting and I have to run to town for a minute, will be back to give a outline of what I would do.

Lynn

[lizzybeth727]

Lynn, it says she was solid on the a-frame and solid with the retrieve.

Ok, how about this one:

Did you teach her to retrieve over objects? Like, use an agility hurdle or panel jump (or maybe even a short broad jump), and start with the jumps set very low so that she has to walk over the jump with the object in her mouth. Then gradually raise the jumps so that she will have to jump with the object in her mouth.

Either that, or practice retrieve up and down a staircase, backchaining so she starts by only having to go up/down one or two steps until she goes the whole way.

[corgipower]

Yes to stairs and hurdles, not all of what you mention, but jumps and also worked over the agility a-frame.

here's a hint ~

the harder the more outside of the box we'll have to work!!

Keep in mind also, I had my trainer come and watch what we were doing several times, and he had no ideas. He's been training and winning in Schutzhund for decades.

[adojrts]

What does it mean by being 'solid' on the frame?? Please explain how she knows the frame. Can you lower the apex of the frame?
Then I'll give some thoughts lol.

Lynn

[corgipower]

Originally Posted by adojrts

Was the two behaviours trained separately? If not this what I would do.
Ok, from what I know about a Sch. A frame I don't believe it is possible to safely backchain as we know in agility.
I would train the the two behaviours separately. I would train each of these behaviours then put it all together. Send to frame to a target (target on the ground, food tube that the dog can't self reward but can be given a reward from. Restrained recall over frame to handler for a reward, then train the send over frame to target, recall to handler.
At that point I would then add the dumbbell, replacing the dumbbell at the target. I would also consider, having a second person there to hand her the dumbbell at first, then progressing to having it on the ground. Of course that is assuming that the dumbbell retrieve has also been trained first lol.

They were trained and proofed separately. I don't believe the sch a-frame can be targeted to the ground the way an agility a-frame can be. I did do separate send outs and recalls over the a-frame. I didn't have anyone hand her the dumbbell, never thought to do that, but I did place the dumbbell on the a-frame at various places for her to take it on her way over. She had no problem with taking the dumbbell when she was on the way over the a-frame. It never translated into her carrying the dumbbell from being on the ground over the a-frame.

When doing the recalls over the a-frame, I also would place give her the dumbbell to hold before recalling her, and in those instances, she would return to her either not climbing the a-frame or her not carrying the dumbbell.

[lizzybeth727]

Originally Posted by corgipower

Yes to stairs and hurdles, not all of what you mention, but jumps and also worked over the agility a-frame.

Now I'm confused.

I officially give up.

[corgipower]

Originally Posted by adojrts

What does it mean by being 'solid' on the frame?? Please explain how she knows the frame. Can you lower the apex of the frame?
Then I'll give some thoughts lol.

Lynn

It doesn't lower. She was trained on a variety of obstacles, including a full regulation agility course. With the sch. a-frame, she had already done agility obstacles, and basically it just involved sending her over the a-frame. I initially taught it staying close to her - next to her - to spot her as one would with an agility contact obstacle. When she was confident in that, I would leave her on a stay and walk to the a-frame. I would stand next to it and give her the command to go over it. I then increased some distance away from it for where I stood, and then left her on a stay on one side, and went to the other side and called her over as well as sending her out away from me over it. We did have access to three different Sch a-frames, and she was proficient at all of them.

[adojrts]

CP,
I wasn't thinking of targeting on the frame the way we do with agility training but targeting to the place that the dumbbell would be. Even if the target was a hoolahoop (sp) laying on the ground (or a something similiar that she had to go into).
Ok, I am getting ahead of myself lol. And I hope I can explain this well enough to be understood lol, (of course it would help if my kid stopped interupting me)

Put a hoolahoop or poles on the ground to form a pause area where the dumbbell would be. I would use a clicker to mark when she goes into it, then reward on ground (not from your hand) in the hoop, then I would start sending her into it and recalling her out of it to a reward (whatever she finds the most rewarding). Once she could send a distance into the hoop and come back to me, then I would start near it again using the dumbbell and progress until she would send into the hoop, pick up the dumbbell and bring it to me. Then add distance.
Then I would use a frame that could be lowered, start at the base closest to the hoop and send her, clicking and rewarding when she came back to me with the dumbbell. Then I would put her on the frame on the downside, release to the hoop etc. progress to her being released from the apex (of the lowered frame) and so on until she could be released from the far side of the of the frame. Of course we know this is called backchaining.
As she starts to understand the game, raise the frame to the point where she can no longer see you (max of 6'3"). When successful, cut off part of your hoop leaving only 3/4,keep the open part to the backside, keep reducing the hoop as she is successful. Or when removing bars on the ground, remove the back bar first then one side, then the other with the front bar being last to be removed.
But when you start working on the Sch. Frame start again with a complete hoop and backchaining, cutting down hoop etc. The second phase of the Sch Frame should go very quickly.
I would also never correct her, because I would question as to whether she fully understood what I was teaching her.

That is what I would try..........

[corgipower]

Neat Lynn. The tricky part would be the lowering of the a-frame, which is something I do wish I could have done for her, but I didn't have access to a Sch a-frame that would lower (if there is such a thing). I will definitely keep that in mind for future dogs - if not one that can be lowered, maybe someone can make different sizes for training...hmmm...

I did use an agility a-frame, and I did lower that and train it at a variety of heights, but there is a significant difference in the structure and feel of the two.

Lynn, are you ready to hear what was done?