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  #11  
Old 06-24-2008, 09:49 AM
SizzleDog SizzleDog is online now
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With dobes... yes, many of the standards in the European countries have been changed to allow for larger specimens.

Keep in mind that a Doberman is a medium sized breed - they aren't supposed to be big honkin' dogs. The word that comes to mind when I see many European dogs is "coarseness" - dobes should look powerful, but not bulldozer-powerful (theirs is a beauty of a BMW, not a Cadillac Escalade). Overly massive bodies, heavy heads, short thick necks, chests so big they seem to just get in the way... not my idea of a good Doberman, not my idea of a good working dog.

Bigger/thicker isn't always better - look at working Malinois - they're smaller and lighter than Dobermans, and yet they don't seem to have a problem excelling in bitework.

IMO, the European dobes of today look nothing like the "dobes of old". American dogs (IMO of course) fit the original look a bit closer. If you look at old photos of Dobermans, both in the US and Europe, they're smaller, lighter in bone, not so massive.

When I get back from work, I'll try to post some photos of German imports, from when the Dobe first came to the US - you'll see that they are vastly different than the current European dogs.
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  #12  
Old 06-24-2008, 09:59 AM
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Laurelin Laurelin is offline
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Yeah, Sizzle. I'm on a forum with a bunch of Europeans as well as Americans and you do get to see all the breed types (and hear everyone's opinions of them)

The Americans say the Euro dogs have too much bone and are too unrefined.

The Europeans say the American dogs are too thin and showy.

And of course the British say their dogs are of course the perfect balance somewhere in between.

And the dane people will argue this until the cows come home. Sorry, poking fun at my friends. It's interesting. I find I like the European look on some breeds and others not so much. Anyways, here's a better pic of a Euro boxer

http://www.delcolledellinfinito.it/zg_tito.htm
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  #13  
Old 06-24-2008, 11:11 AM
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There's a line between working and show type dogs too, even in Europe. The working line Rottie isn't a real big dog. At the club I was training at, we had 2. One was about 100lbs, and the other was 85lbs. Both intact males and from German working lines. The smaller one was a street patrol dog for a police agency. Both are very hard dogs with high defensive drives, not much in the prey drive department, but that's typical of a Rottie. Good for home defense, not much for running down someone from a distance.

I always thought the American line Rotties were the ones that were over sized, but I don't have anything to back that up.
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  #14  
Old 06-24-2008, 05:10 PM
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Those dobes they look very overweight to me...
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  #15  
Old 06-24-2008, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedyreRottweilers View Post
This dog is Multi V-1 ARV/AKC Champion Jeneck's Sam BH,SchH3,IPO3,AD,Korung,ABST, CGC

I am not sure if Sam is still living, if so he is an old dog by now. He was a VERY beautiful dog in his day, with a lovely head piece, and an OUTSTANDING working dog. He and his owner/trainer Amanda competed internationally, represented the US on the IFR team of working dogs. Sam was a magnificent specimen of the breed both on and off the working field, with flawless temperament and character.

Amanda kept him in the utmost physical condition while she was working and showing him. Sam produced many very nice progeny during his breeding lifetime as well.
I knew I could spot a good dog when I see him! Haha. He is just gorgeous. I've never seen a rottie that well muscled either.

Ok, off to find the links to the other dogs I posted...
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  #16  
Old 06-24-2008, 08:28 PM
Squishy22
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ROTTWEILER LINKS:

The first rottie I posted looks even more massive in the other pics shown on his breeders website. His breeder also produces dobermans.

http://www.dicamo-dogs.com/rotweiler...of_gallery.htm

Link to the 14 month old I posted.

http://www.donnerbergrottweilers.com...von-ixoye.html


DOBERMAN LINKS:

Here is a pretty long list of doberman champions. Some of them look gigantic to me, while others look pretty normal.

http://www.gem-givveeon.com/english/.../champions.htm

Link to the huge red dobie I posted. He IS a champion.

http://www.brittonfarmsdobermans.com/

110 pound champion doberman...

http://www.thunderstormdobermans.com/Chiefspage.html
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  #17  
Old 06-24-2008, 08:32 PM
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It makes complete sense to me that the working dogs are much smaller than the show dogs. Although I come across pretty big and mastiffy looking Rotties, it seems that dobermans have even more of a "loose" standard than rottweilers.

I mean, look at the 110 pound champion dobie. I never thought that was even possible. Dobies are allowed to be that large? Thats just shocking.

Its amazing how breeds change so much over time. I wonder what the 2 breeds will look like in 100 years. There will be 200 pound champion dobermans walking around.
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  #18  
Old 06-24-2008, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Dog in Europe, in particular Germany and other countries where there are strict regulations regarding breeding tend to NOT be oversized. No dog in Germany can be bred before completing the Ztpr test, where the dog is evaluated as to breed type, MEASURED, and the temperament is evaluated. This is the most basic breed test, almost ALL dogs earn at least a SCH1 or IPO1 before breeding.
If only they did that in the U.S there wouldn't be this massive overpopulation!!
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  #19  
Old 06-24-2008, 08:58 PM
RedyreRottweilers
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Reggin, do not equate an "International Champion" title with a Championship title from AKC. The requirements for a UCI In'tl CH title are quite loose.
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  #20  
Old 06-24-2008, 09:36 PM
doberkim doberkim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SizzleDog View Post
With dobes... yes, many of the standards in the European countries have been changed to allow for larger specimens.

Keep in mind that a Doberman is a medium sized breed - they aren't supposed to be big honkin' dogs. The word that comes to mind when I see many European dogs is "coarseness" - dobes should look powerful, but not bulldozer-powerful (theirs is a beauty of a BMW, not a Cadillac Escalade). Overly massive bodies, heavy heads, short thick necks, chests so big they seem to just get in the way... not my idea of a good Doberman, not my idea of a good working dog.

Bigger/thicker isn't always better - look at working Malinois - they're smaller and lighter than Dobermans, and yet they don't seem to have a problem excelling in bitework.

IMO, the European dobes of today look nothing like the "dobes of old". American dogs (IMO of course) fit the original look a bit closer. If you look at old photos of Dobermans, both in the US and Europe, they're smaller, lighter in bone, not so massive.

When I get back from work, I'll try to post some photos of German imports, from when the Dobe first came to the US - you'll see that they are vastly different than the current European dogs.
Well, I will disagree - the FCI standard was changed to allow for one quarter of an inch increase in height, was it not? It said nothing in regards to neck, chest, or anything of the light. That is the fancy going towards a trend - same as the fancy in the US goes right now for dogs that are overangulated, with such extreme angles they can barely move, with extremely long necks with not enough musculature, etc. Looking at the original dobermans 100 years ago, the dobermans being bred today in EITHER country don't resemble them very much, either- the breed has changed. The "American" doberman doesn't look like the "dobes of old" either - however, something has to be said for being able to preserve the ability to work, which WAS the function of old, which hasn't been preserved in the American doberman.

While many of those dogs may give the impression of being large, not all of them ARE large - spending time at trials, you can see dogs that may appear large in photos, but in reality are still only 70-80 or so lbs, same as their american counterparts. Big differences do include the size of the forechest and prosternum, the fact that yes, many SHOW dogs are shown overweight (working dogs are not, because they DO have to be worked and need to be kept in working weight - but there are european working dogs and euro show dogs just the same as there are in the US), and the overall coarseness of the dog.

Right now it comes down to preference - I don't think choosing one or the other is right, because there has to be an inbetween and choosing a structurally correct dog that can work is the right thing (of course with proper temperament and health testing) - but looking at some of the overangulated, extreme dogs seen in the show ring today, THEY don't look like the show dogs of three decades ago, either. We've taken it to an extreme, which is why the doberman ring is so competitive - it's less about the dogs and more about how much art you put into showing them. We need to get to the moderate, solid dogs and they exist on BOTH sides of the atlantic ocean - nice compact dogs, good toplines, good angulation in the front and rear, pleasant to look at.
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Last edited by doberkim; 06-24-2008 at 10:02 PM.
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