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  #21  
Old 06-03-2008, 01:19 AM
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Boemy Boemy is offline
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I know what you mean, Gempress, it's annoying when you adopt a shelter dog and people are always going, "Ohhh, what's wrong with her?"

Just because a dog's in the pound doesn't mean it has--or will develop--health or temperament problems. Reputable breeders are great, genetic testing is great, but people shouldn't imply that all shelter dogs are doooomed simply because they came from irresponsible people or BYBs. My border collie / lab mix, Ebony, lived fourteen years without any health problems (other than some arthritis in her old age that we easily controlled with glucosamine), and her temperament? Perfect lab temperament, except we could leave food on the coffee table without her showing the least interest in it--and she tried to herd soccer balls.

I was lucky with Ebony (who was adopted as a puppy), but how many other dogs are sitting in a cage, waiting to make someone else lucky? All love is a risk. To me, the knowledge that you're saving a life makes the shelter dog worth the gamble.
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  #22  
Old 06-03-2008, 04:46 AM
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That's an interesting point, Gemp...

I think what makes the difference, is that a shelter/rescue dog NEEDS a home. NEEDS to be adopted. The puppies at BYBs/mills don't NEED to be bought... the ones that aren't just end up in the shelter system, anyway. And, on average, the cost of a shelter dog is less than all of the medical care it has received (shots + altering costs A LOT more than $100 at a regular Vet), while a BYB or puppy mill is more than likely going to charge as much as they possibly can, for a puppy who is not altered, and has had minimal health care. Just based on that, buying from a bad breeder is a rip-off; not even considering the potential health/temperament issues that dog might have.

A lot of people warn against adopting puppies from shelters, too. I have been told it's unwise. When you adopt a young adult or an adult, you have a really good idea of their temperament and health before-hand. In many ways, adopting an adult dog is one of the safest "investments" you can make, and most adults in shelters are not there for any type or health or behavioral problem. I adopted Fozzie as a 9 week old - and I don't regret it AT ALL! I suppose I was lucky, because I ended up with a super friendly, well adjusted, healthy dog. I was willing to take the risk of having to work through behavioral problems or deal with health problems, when I adopted him. It does help that he was raised from birth in a foster home, though. : )
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  #23  
Old 06-03-2008, 09:21 AM
Gempress Gempress is offline
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Originally Posted by noludoru View Post
Now, while well-bred dogs can have these problems, too, and we have examples of that right on this forum.. I find it hard to believe that it's a bad idea to stress buying from a breeder like that if we can.
I didn't say it was a bad idea to stress buying from a good breeder. Let me clarify again. Sorry, I guess I'm not being very articulate in this thread.

I have no problem with going with reputable breeders. I am against buying from backyard breeders. But I disagree with the whole fire-and-brimstone speech about ALL BYB DOGS being health and temperamental disasters.

I don't like propaganda, regardless of the cause. And frankly, that's what that statement is---something designed to stampede people in the direction you want them to go.

There are plenty of perfectly good reasons for people to avoid BYBs WITHOUT bringing the stability of many good, adoptable dogs into question. Blanket statements like that are what make shelter and rescue dogs frowned upon.
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  #24  
Old 06-03-2008, 09:27 AM
Gempress Gempress is offline
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Originally Posted by Buddy'sParents View Post
But if someone was serious enough about adding a canine addition to their home they would have done the research beforehand would have known better to begin with.
I completely disagree, and actually find that a bit insulting. People often don't go with reputable breeders to begin with because they don't know there *is* such a thing. My old golden was from a BYB in the newspaper. We knew it was bad to go through a pet store, and thought that "going through a breeder" meant "buying from the person who bred the dog". We had no clue there were differences in the quality of breeders. But we planned and prepared for two years before bringing Tigger home. It certainly wasn't a lack of dedication.

I bet there are quite a few dogs on Chaz that were purchased from BYBs, before the owner knew any better. I know several off the top of my head. Does that mean that those people are somehow less serious and less dedicated of a dog owner?
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  #25  
Old 06-03-2008, 09:55 AM
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I got Gunnar from a BYB. She is what I consider a hobbyist. She breeds for the love of the breed and uses good dogs. They are all health tested but are not necessarily always titled, though Gunnar's pedigree is filled with titled dogs, many Sch3, advanced tracking titles, etc. We got an amazing dog in Gunnar. Her contract was simple and had no stipulations or anything about breeding rights, and our interview was brief. We mostly played with the pups and picked the one we thought had the best attributes for what we were looking for.

One of the guys I train with is a BYB. He also health tests his dogs. He has a certified bomb dog female with no titles, but she was a REAL working dog, which to me, is what it's all about- all a sport title like Sch gives you is the knowledge that your dog might be able to work. Actually doing it is the real deal. and he breeds her out to a Sch3 male who also does some other kind of work from another breeder, and those 2 dogs have made some incredible pups, ones that I would snag in an instant if I could have another dog here.

Neither of these breeders fits the description of what some people would consider a great breeder, but they have good dogs and have good pups as a result.

Based on some of the comments that have been posted recently, I asked the one guy about what he'd do if someone bought a dog from him and a year later decided the dog was too much for them. He said he'd take it back and give them a full refund. Why? Because he knows that if someone buys a dog (even if you interview someone you never know how they are going to be able to handle a high drive dog), and brings it back at a year old and the dog is dominating the handler, he can do it's hips, give it some training resell it as a green dog for 2500 bucks. Interesting logic.

Bruzer was obtained from an elderly couple who loved pugs. They were well cared for indoor dogs but the people did no health testing or anything. We knew nothing about health testing ourselves, even with my wife having worked at a vet for 10 years.

Daisy's breeder is the only one who I'd consider an excellent breeder. Her interview process was extensive and her dogs were tested on everything that Danes are prone to have, for generations back. We knew we were getting a great dog from her, and paid the price as Daisy was double the cost of Gunnar, and would have been 3x the cost if we had bought a breeding contract.
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  #26  
Old 06-03-2008, 10:04 AM
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noludoru noludoru is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gempress View Post
I didn't say it was a bad idea to stress buying from a good breeder. Let me clarify again. Sorry, I guess I'm not being very articulate in this thread.

I have no problem with going with reputable breeders. I am against buying from backyard breeders. But I disagree with the whole fire-and-brimstone speech about ALL BYB DOGS being health and temperamental disasters.

I don't like propaganda, regardless of the cause. And frankly, that's what that statement is---something designed to stampede people in the direction you want them to go.

There are plenty of perfectly good reasons for people to avoid BYBs WITHOUT bringing the stability of many good, adoptable dogs into question. Blanket statements like that are what make shelter and rescue dogs frowned upon.
Aw crap, Gemp. That wasn't you at all.. that was me. LOL. You were actually perfectly clear on your points. I just tend to associate the "fire and brimstone" approach against BYBs with the rhetoric on reputable breeders, and I guess I assumed that when you said tone it down you meant "don't talk about reputable breeders because it might hurt the shelter dogs too" when that wasn't what you were saying at all. I'm sorry.

And? I see your point completely now and agree with you.
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  #27  
Old 06-03-2008, 10:28 AM
Buddy'sParents Buddy'sParents is offline
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Originally Posted by Gempress View Post
I completely disagree, and actually find that a bit insulting. People often don't go with reputable breeders to begin with because they don't know there *is* such a thing. My old golden was from a BYB in the newspaper. We knew it was bad to go through a pet store, and thought that "going through a breeder" meant "buying from the person who bred the dog". We had no clue there were differences in the quality of breeders. But we planned and prepared for two years before bringing Tigger home. It certainly wasn't a lack of dedication.

I bet there are quite a few dogs on Chaz that were purchased from BYBs, before the owner knew any better. I know several off the top of my head. Does that mean that those people are somehow less serious and less dedicated of a dog owner?
Hmm. No, but I'm sure they learned, right?

My whole point is people need to think and research BEFORE getting a dog. (erm, we've digressed from the OT, oh well ).

We got Buddy on a whim. Weeelll, ok, I did. Me finally getting a puppy was a condition of our moving and I went out and got Buddy. Sure my parents had had dogs and we had adopted from the SPCA before, but as you well know, it was a disaster and we almost lost Buddy. I do not regret one second of the time I've spent with Buddy, training him, nursing him through some medical disaster and I would do it all over again just to have him in my life. But could anyone else say the same?

Would any other first time dog owner have nursed him through a week of ICU and a few thousand bucks of care and having to buy his puppy things all over again? I'm afraid not. I constantly get things like, wow, he is so lucky to have you guys, you are such great owners, blah, blah, blah.. because probably anyone else would have given up long ago. And THAT is my point.

If I KNOWN beforehand, I had research before... then maybe I would have known to take him to the vet the first day.. or I would have known that that specific SPCA is crap. I would have known what signs to look for when he was getting sicker and sicker. I can just imagine how jaded people would be if they adopted a puppy from SPCA to only have it die on Christmas day. Hell, I'm jaded and he lived! I refuse to donate to or support the SPCA in any way. Regardless...

So, yeah, I think people need to educate themselves beforehand. I think they need to think everything through. And while I don't believe, generally speaking, going to places like the SPCA are a bad idea, I do think it should not be a rash decision. I think people should read a book... or hop online. It doesn't sound crazy to me at all.. this idea that people be prepared and responsible for another life they are bringing into their home.

ETA: I do agree that the message could be softer... but I still think the message should be there. It's a crap shoot when you adopt and have no idea of the backgrounds, but a responsible rescues works that out... and it's a crap shoot when you buy from a BYB/mill because they don't give a hoot about the dogs. Education is key to all parts of life.
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  #28  
Old 06-03-2008, 10:32 AM
Gempress Gempress is offline
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Originally Posted by Buddy'sParents View Post
My whole point is people need to think and research BEFORE getting a dog. (erm, we've digressed from the OT, oh well ).
Don't worry about it. This is the forum where a thread on mini Aussies turned into a discussion on miniature cows. It wouldn't be Chaz if the thread wasn't derailed.
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  #29  
Old 06-03-2008, 10:40 AM
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Whisper Whisper is offline
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I see your point, Gemp. I agree with you.
I don't think the fact that I didn't know better about BYBs and pet stores makes me a bad dog owner. Like *many* of us, I learned about that stuff when I came to Chaz. I know better now, and I'm a much better dog owner than I was, though I've always loved my dogs deeply and taken good care of them. I am going to a rescue for my next dog.
I can think of several well-respected, responsible Chaz members who've bought from a BYB or pet store.
Lucy's from a pet store, and thankfully she doesn't have severe temperament issues, though potty training has been an issue with her. She used to relieve herself anywhere- her crate, in bedding, next to where she was sleeping, and it's taken a huge amount of commitment and consistency to get her to be &quot;normally&quot; potty-trained. She's finally potty trained, and she's 3 years old.
Millie was from an accidental litter. She has a beautiful temperament, solid enough to be a service dog, and I've never had any issues with her from her background.
If I were adopting Lucy from a rescue knowing her issue, I'd take her in a heartbeat, because she would need a home, but I would never buy a dog from a pet store or from a BYB again, because I'd never want to support breeders like that, ever again.
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  #30  
Old 06-03-2008, 10:40 AM
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noludoru noludoru is offline
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Don't worry about it. This is the forum where a thread on mini Aussies turned into a discussion on miniature cows. It wouldn't be Chaz if the thread wasn't derailed.
HEY NOW!

They're adorable.

I mean come on.. who can resist zebu!?

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