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  #11  
Old 05-25-2008, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Lilavati View Post
Well, that's true, but people DID have dogs. They just had mixed breeds, or, more accurately, mutts and mongrels. Now, I think that's fine, and wish more people would go to a shelter (Though getting puppy from a shelter is a dodgy proposition). BUt since many of them won't, for good and bad reasons, And I'm not sure if it was ever that exclusive with many breeds. Some of them, certainly. A few of them still. But people have been able to get many purebred dogs from reasonably responsible people for a long time.
Another place that people got dogs from was the farm.

Some of the best bred dogs came from farmers who had been breeding stock and their own stock dogs for generations. If the dog wasn't healthy and couldn't work and didn't have an acceptable temperament, it didn't get bred.

If you think about it, that's a more realistic and wholesome test of a working breed dog's lineage than any number of letters after a kennel name or any kind of certs.
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  #12  
Old 05-25-2008, 12:22 PM
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most genetic testing is a one time deal...so not very different at all from a section. Point is you need to be able to pull money outta your butt if you breed dogs...or you simply have to be hard hearted enough to let them die because you lack funds.

If you will not spend the money for genetic testing which might save me the consumer...some money and heatbreak down the road...and so you yourself are not breeding in a dark room because flipping on the light might raise the electric bill...I have no problem going elsewhere.
general "yous" again
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  #13  
Old 05-25-2008, 12:25 PM
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Responsible breeders never advertise
I disagree, somewhat. I know a few responsible breeders that run ads in publications such as Dog Fancy - not to sell pups, but to hopefully act as a "net" for at least some of the novice dog owners to-be to be "caught" in. Every novice who calls these breeders gets gently educated on why they should research the breed they want, and how to make sure they're buying from a responsible breeder. They educate against the breeders they are listed next to - the ones offering oversized or undersized dogs, irresponsibly bred dogs, etc.

I have immense respect for the breeders that dedicate themselves to this "public education" - they get calls at all hours of the day and night, and spend a lot of time educating the clueless public in this manner.
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  #14  
Old 05-25-2008, 12:28 PM
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and BTW...I am not sure the BYB needs defending...

far as I can see they have it pretty good. They can reap the financial rewards and accolades of the pet buyers...and be answerable to no one because most do not attend shows or have peer pressure, are not members of clubs or do any organized activities...and spend none of the money involved in proving a dog in some way.

It's easy to be a BYB...so why does one need to defend them? It is hard to be a good breeder..IMO...and in most cases we are left on our own to defend ourselves and answer tons of questions about what we do. We do xyz and people still ask us why we didn't do W...lol.
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  #15  
Old 05-25-2008, 03:44 PM
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I agree with some of your points but I believe if you are breeding without proving your dog to be a good example of his breed (the mess of titles, the dog looks like his breed if he is shown and has the drives and working ability of his breed if he is worked, he has a good temperament if he is a therapy pet or has his CGC). I also think it's irresponsible to breed without getting all the genetic tests needed for your breed, the last thing we need is more unhealthy dogs. My reasoning is simple, there are enough dogs as there is. We need to breed though, so breeds will not die out. But if we are breeding dogs that don't conform to standard of temperament and body are we really even preserving the breed? Or will they eventually turn into something else because we keep breeding them more and more out of standard. Most importantly because there are so many dogs we can't just be ok with everyone breeding, we need to have some "standard" of quality, well why not have that be dogs who are actually good examples of their breed and are healthy? I don't see anything wrong with being hard on BYBs, we don't need their dogs, we have enough dogs who are not anything like their breed, they are in shelters. If you cannot strive for quality don't breed, it's not some awful thing to say you should not be breeding puppies, why not just enjoy the dogs you have, you don't need to be breeding.
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  #16  
Old 05-25-2008, 06:31 PM
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I agree with a lot of that lilivati, I know breeders that I really like to advertise, why shoudln't they? It gets the idea of a registered breeder out into the public, instead of having to get into those inner dog circles, they can look through a magazine or on the net.
Now this advertisement doens't mean they get a puppy, it means they can inquire and be judged like everyone else.
I think its great, I think someotimes the general public getthis ciew that registered breeders are "elitest" and you wouold only buy from them if you wanted a show dog.

I will also want a particular colour when I get my next dog. This has been discussed on another forum many times on what breeders think of people asking for specific colours. The general consensus, you wait for this dog, you pay for this dog, if you are willing to wait for the right colour, its the icing on the cake, but temperment comes first.
I will ask to wait for specific colours, for example. My kelpie I would be after either red and tan or fawn and tan. Personal preference and if I'm paying for a puppy I am willing to wait for the "icing on the cake"

I've also been looking into kelpies and asking around about health testing and such. I know they are an amazingly healthy breed and wouldn't expect much tested. There is one eye issue that can be tested for but when asking people with working kelpies about it, it appears to only be an issue with bench kelpies.
I havn;t done all my research yet but atm I've found a breeder that has dogs with stable temperments AND good working ability, this is very important to me. I've talked to a woman that has 2 of their kelpies, apparently they are great at matching pupies to new owners and are picky about wherethe puppies go, which pleases me.
Than I have talked to other people that have dogs from fantastoic working lines, but the parents had loose temperments so the pups are extremly DA. I see a lot ofworking breeders breeding for working ability alone, doens't matter if their dogs can't go to the dog park or be taken down town, they just have to do their work. But my priorities lye differently in that sense. Its very important I get a stable tempermented dog this time round.
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Old 05-25-2008, 06:43 PM
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One thing that just irks me about health testing. If you do not test, you do not know. Just do the tests. Really. You can spout all day that "____" breed doesn't have hip problems. Well, how do you know unless you test? It's a simple test, it costs $40 plus the cost of x-rays to get it done. It's a one time test, just do it.

Not picking on you, Mrose, its just that you reminded me about it. It's what I don't like about strictly working breeders. A lot of them don't test and they say "Well THAT problem only runs in conformation lines." Well THATS because the conformation people are doing the testing that you should be doing. Don't all dogs of the same breed come from essentially the same bloodlines? Especially in a breed with a small gene pool.

Working breeders will often opt out of testing because "A dog with HD couldn't work all day." Not true. There are varying degrees of hip displasia, elbow displasia etc. Some dogs will work through the pain just because they have a ton of heart.

IMO, health testing is priority in ANY breed.
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  #18  
Old 05-25-2008, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoundedByHounds View Post
It's easy to be a BYB...so why does one need to defend them? It is hard to be a good breeder..IMO...and in most cases we are left on our own to defend ourselves and answer tons of questions about what we do. We do xyz and people still ask us why we didn't do W...lol.

I agree with Zoom too - lowering the bar is just like asking for trouble.
We all want the ideal in everything else, and know what that ideal is... so why lower the bar for dog breeders?

It sounds like more than anything you're objecting to these breeders being called "irresponsible"... This is why I think most of us like to use the term "reputable" breeder. To me, it's like... there are reputable breeders, and then everybody else. And like you said, that everybody else is a spectrum, ranging from the naive breeder to a puppymill. But if somebody doesn't health test (though for my breed, I do think somebody who is breeding without health testing is indeed irresponsibly breeding) they just aren't reputable. It doesn't make them a bad PERSON, but they are not a breeder I'm going to hold in high regard the way I will for people who, as Hounded said, worked so hard to be an excellent breeder who's really improving the breed.


There are several problems with the "Well, I've never had any problems in my lines so I don't health test" response... VWd, for example, may not always show clinical signs in affected dogs, depending on which type it is. You wouldn't know a dog was affected unless you saw signs of it or if you had the testing done, so you might unknowingly breed an affected dog and produce other affected dogs who WILL show signs. There's also affected dogs and then carrier dogs... if you were breeding a carrier to a clear (non-carrier) dog, you would come up with carriers and non-carriers, but no affected dogs. Theoretically you could breed a few, or even several, generations without ever ending up with a carrier and a carrier breeding and producing affected dogs... but eventually it would/could happen if you weren't testing and selectively breeding.
The same goes for stuff like hips and elbows, since it's graded, and you need to keep an eye on the quality - not just for the individual dog, but siblings and the rest of the pedigree too.

So it sounds fine in theory to say you haven't had problems in your lines, but in practice, genes make it more sticky than that. I mean, yeah, a breeder is selectively breeding, but the natural elements of evolution and biology are still at play. Mutations will always occur no matter what you do, so you best be trying your hardest to keep an eye on everything you can IMO!
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  #19  
Old 05-25-2008, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OutlineACDs View Post
One thing that just irks me about health testing. If you do not test, you do not know. Just do the tests. Really. You can spout all day that "____" breed doesn't have hip problems. Well, how do you know unless you test? It's a simple test, it costs $40 plus the cost of x-rays to get it done. It's a one time test, just do it.

Not picking on you, Mrose, its just that you reminded me about it. It's what I don't like about strictly working breeders. A lot of them don't test and they say "Well THAT problem only runs in conformation lines." Well THATS because the conformation people are doing the testing that you should be doing. Don't all dogs of the same breed come from essentially the same bloodlines? Especially in a breed with a small gene pool.

Working breeders will often opt out of testing because "A dog with HD couldn't work all day." Not true. There are varying degrees of hip displasia, elbow displasia etc. Some dogs will work through the pain just because they have a ton of heart.

IMO, health testing is priority in ANY breed.
Thats a good point Outline and I do agree with you.
The issue comes with where are all these health testing breeders?

I've only seen show kelpies breeders testing and I'm not after ine from those lines.
This really is difficult, I suppose when I start looking for real I will get in contact with WKC and ask about it there.
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  #20  
Old 05-25-2008, 07:57 PM
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I'm just going to touch on the point of genetic testing.

I don't care how healthy a breeder thinks their breeding dogs are, in this day and age, not health testing a dog is IMO not only irresponsible, but cruel.

I say this because I own a dog who is a genetic mess and most of her problems could've been avoided had the breeder health tested and not ridden the coat-tails of the breeders several generations back who did health test.

It only takes one or two generations for dogs to fall apart. Hannah is living proof of that. Her great grandparents were BIS and BISS dogs and were health tested to the hilt with passing results. So Hannah's breeder skimped on the health testing because "there were no problems in the lines". Well, a whole lot of good that did us.

I say, boo hoo if it costs money. If you don't do it, you shouldn't be breeding dogs. I think it is morally bankrupt for someone to breed dogs that aren't health tested. It's russian roulette....only the breeder isn't the one suffering. The dog and it's owners are.
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