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  #31  
Old 04-25-2008, 11:52 AM
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I'm really with Zoom. If you HAVE flyball and agility titles, then great, but I really don't think that's a good reason to breed FOR.

There's a difference in breeding dogs that CAN do sports and then breeding a dog specifially FOR sports.
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  #32  
Old 04-25-2008, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by HoundedByHounds View Post
That is what the thread is about...CHANGING a breed to enhance, and ONLY focus on a performance temperament...at the exclusion of original purpose, temperament, and conformation. That is what I thought, at least.
If the dog can perform the original purpose and the temperament is sound and he is structurally sound, he should be capable of obedience, agility, flyball, etc.

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Originally Posted by Zoom View Post
People who tout agility/flyball titles as proof of a dog's "breedability" scare me. To me, there is nothing about those titles that set them apart from a billion other dogs...almost any dog can win a title in those venues.
True for the most part, but if I'm looking for a corgi to do agility with, I prefer to see agility titles in the bloodlines. It's not the only thing I look for, and I would still consider a dog without agility titles in his ancestry, but a lot of good corgis don't quite get their toes off the ground high enough to clear the jumps.

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Originally Posted by PAWZ View Post
I totally disagree with breeding for sport, it serves only, at least in the world of bc's, to produce dogs that are neurotic, hyper, have no ability to settle, and more often than not end up in rescue because the family that bought the pup in the first place can't handle the dog and turns it over to rescue
I don't see that as an issue of breeding for sport vs work. I see it as an issue of breeders who don't know how to select for the right temperament and drives. Neurotic behaviors can manifest as play/chase, which an undereducated person might confuse with prey drive. Hyperactivity can be confused with energy.

A lot of temperament faults can be masked when doing sport while the dog would crumble under real life working conditions, but in the end a poor temperament is still a poor temperament whether you're breeding sport dogs, working dogs, pets or conformation dogs.

Not all breeders have the means to utilize their dog as a working dog. There are many excellent breeders of herding dogs who don't live on acres of land with sheep and cows. There are breeders of GSD's and malinois who aren't in law enforcement and don't live in a high crime area, and their dogs don't undergo day-to-day work as a protection dog, but by understanding temperaments and drives and by selecting for the necessary qualities they are very much capable of producing excellent working dogs.

Also, if the buyers understood better what to look for when selecting a breeder and a puppy, or if they enlisted the help of professionals who know what to look for, the breeders who routinely breed poor temperaments would eventually quit because no one would be buying from them anymore.

There are temperament traits that are very much undesirable regardless of the breed or the purpose. While a JRT is certainly going to be less biddable than a BC, both breeds have stable temperaments. It's then a matter of the breeders to not sell puppies to someone who isn't equipped to handle that puppy and for buyers to not buy puppies that they aren't equipped to handle.
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  #33  
Old 04-25-2008, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by corgipower View Post
True for the most part, but if I'm looking for a corgi to do agility with, I prefer to see agility titles in the bloodlines. It's not the only thing I look for, and I would still consider a dog without agility titles in his ancestry, but a lot of good corgis don't quite get their toes off the ground high enough to clear the jumps.
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  #34  
Old 04-25-2008, 04:32 PM
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I already posted a massive shpeal about Flyball, in the BC breeder thread... but....

I don't really see WHY Flyball dogs would scare you. Have you ever been to a tournament, and actually met any of the dogs? Or have you simply seen the races, televised or whatever?

The races are a small part of Flyball. Miniscule. The dogs might race 4 times a day, for 2-3 days at a large tournament. There are 3 heats per race; each heat lasting a few minutes total. There will be several hours of breaks in between races, in which the dogs hang out in crates and x-pens, go on walks, play in baby pools, and socialize with other dogs. If EVERY ONE of these dogs was hyper, constantly go-go-go, and neurotic, they would be extremely annoying and over-whelmed in a tournament environment. The owners intentionally hype their dogs up before each race, but the dogs are not hyped up through out the entire day.

Most teams practice once a week, for a few hours. We practice every Saturday during the summer/fall/spring months, with occasional demonstrations here and there. The majority of the time is spent doing a variety of exercises; long-distance recalls with distractions, obedience work, passing exercises, a bunch of games with the dogs, some box work, etc. Actually, we spend the majority of the time talking and watching our dogs play. It isn't just "run over the jumps, get the ball, run back again"... there is a lot that goes into training a dog for Flyball. Teaching a dog to take the jumps every time alone takes at least a few weeks. Teaching a dog to TRIGGER the box, let alone do a swimmer's turn (which is faster and safer), can take weeks or months. Gonzo was scared of the box at first, and it took a good 6 months to get him to consistently trigger it. Timing a run perfectly, so that the dog crosses the start line exactly at the green light, and timing perfect passes, is practically an art form. It takes A LOT of practice, A LOT of dedication, and a SERIOUS bond with your dog.

Flyball is more a social event than anything. Dogs get to meet and greet, and so do people. There are tons of awesome booths at tournaments, raffles, prizes, non-Flyball-related games, and you become very close with your team. I actually prefer the social aspect of Flyball way over Agility; it isn't anywhere near as close-knit.


As far as things like breeding borderjacks, pit/JRTs, border/pits for flyball, I used to be completely against it because I thought it was a huge money making scheme producing neurotic dogs. But from talking to people with borderjacks and being around them, I really don't have much of a problem with it anymore. It is EXTREMELY hard (from what I hear) to get a borderjack if you aren't established in a dogsport, and they aren't churning out litter after litter like many of the designer breeds. I would probably prefer that these people get a dog from a shelter, and I don't think I'd ever get a borderjack, but I definitally understand it more now.
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  #35  
Old 04-25-2008, 05:20 PM
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As someone who's breed's original purpose is now illegal, I really wish more people would breed for performance sports over the show ring, or worse, what they think these dogs should look like.
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  #36  
Old 04-25-2008, 05:47 PM
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No matter what you breed for, the total dog must be considered. Breeding for one trait, ANY single trait leads a breed down a bad road. I believe conformation fits the function. Working is most impt especially for breeds bred to work.

But breeding a BC just to be fast, and not taking into consideration nerve and focus gets you crazy fast dogs that are nuerotic for a ball, and without it have no attention span, no focus no nerves, etc.

That's just a single simple example. You can get away with short sighted breeding for a while, but sooner or later, not paying attention to the entire dog, temperment, health drive, etc the breed suffers, some more than others. Just my .02
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  #37  
Old 04-25-2008, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
I'm really with Zoom. If you HAVE flyball and agility titles, then great, but I really don't think that's a good reason to breed FOR.

There's a difference in breeding dogs that CAN do sports and then breeding a dog specifially FOR sports.
Some dog breeds like the APBT can not do their original purpose. A lot of APBT beeders are breeding for agilty so they can hopefully keep the breed alive.
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  #38  
Old 04-25-2008, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by PAWZ View Post
I totally disagree with breeding for sport, it serves only, at least in the world of bc's, to produce dogs that are neurotic, hyper, have no ability to settle, and more often than not end up in rescue because the family that bought the pup in the first place can't handle the dog and turns it over to rescue...which is exactly what happend to my pup Whim at 10 wks of age! Although he is not neurotic, he is very high drive, and can settle in the house only because I've taught him how to.

There are without a doubt some very very nice agility bc's out there, and I know a few very experienced handlers that have gone to sport breeders for their next pup and ended up with temperment problems out the whazzzoo, not that it cant happen from a working breeding but is in my opinion less likely. Working breeders breed because they either need or want another working/trial dog. Sport breeders not so much, where as most working bred pups end up in either working or sport homes with the rarer pet home, the sport breed is more likely to end up in a sport or an unsuspecting pet home. Fortunately at least here in the Mid Atlantic area agility people are turning more and more to the working breeder for their dogs.

Let's consider the Border Jack - originally bred to be a height dog with speed for flyball ---EEEEKKKKK--Cute? YES. Blazingly Fast? YES. Neurotic? YES OCD? Definately. Good family pet? In most cases definately not. Take the terrier temperment, drive and the work they are to train, and the border collie drive, speed, and ocd combine them and stir in a little SMACK for good measure and you have a border jack. Plus just how many border jacks does a flyball team need? What happens to the pups that dont go to knowledgeable families?
There is an alternative for that. Buy a breed that does great at being a pet, not one who is high drive and you can't handle. Some people prefer to keep their active breeds active.
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  #39  
Old 04-25-2008, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ihartgonzo View Post
Flyball is more a social event than anything. Dogs get to meet and greet, and so do people. There are tons of awesome booths at tournaments, raffles, prizes, non-Flyball-related games, and you become very close with your team. I actually prefer the social aspect of Flyball way over Agility; it isn't anywhere near as close-knit.
If its a social sport, why do we need dogs bred for it? Go find a dog from the shelter with a nice ball drive. Since people are breeding dogs specifically for it, at least to them, its a bit more than a social event to them.

As for Trial Labs... thats not hunting either. A hunting dog book will typically warn the reader for getting a Trial Lab for a hunting dog; almost as strongly as they warn against Show- Only Labs. A lot of the Pointer trials are run from horseback, which is great if you have giant fields and a horse, but not so good for most people.
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  #40  
Old 04-25-2008, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Psyfalcon View Post
If its a social sport, why do we need dogs bred for it? Go find a dog from the shelter with a nice ball drive. Since people are breeding dogs specifically for it, at least to them, its a bit more than a social event to them.
Note that... I never said Border Collies, or any breed, should be bred only for dog sports. It was more of a response to the posts that state that Flyball ruins breeds, Flyball is a sport for neurotic crazy dogs, etc. I have seen people with neurotic dogs, and they have failed miserably at Flyball, because it DOES take a large amount of control and it does take a dog that is highly intuned to their owner. Even though it IS largely a social event, that does not mean it doesn't test the intelligence, drive and biddability of the dogs. It does. It's just that, from the outside, all that an onlooker sees is the actual races... not the months, and even years, of training and partnership that the dog and owner go through to get to a competitive level.

And, for those dogs who do become obsessive and neurotic, how does one KNOW that it is a product of the dog's breeding? Does how the dog was raised and how the owner handles the dog count for nothing? Personally, I do feel that "off switches" in Border Collies, and in most any breed, are more a product of nurture than nature.

Again... I don't believe any BC should be bred unless it is a skilled, balanced working dog. But if the dogs are titled in dog sports as well, that gives them extra brownie points, to me.
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