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  #21  
Old 04-25-2008, 11:05 AM
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That is what the thread is about...CHANGING a breed to enhance, and ONLY focus on a performance temperament...at the exclusion of original purpose, temperament, and conformation. That is what I thought, at least.


Is that something you agree with? After all, the breed is still "changed"...in both cases...from what it's original founders intended. given strain might even at some point...NOT be able to serve it's original purpose, or change in some significant way conformationally (for ex become smaller, or lighter boned, or more angulated, or longer of body), because of such breeding specialization.
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Old 04-25-2008, 11:06 AM
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BTW I did not think the OP meant hunting and original purpose in Performance but rather...agility, OB, Flyball, etc...

Could they clarify?
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  #23  
Old 04-25-2008, 11:10 AM
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Flyball dogs scare me. How is it from hunting dogs? I'll admit, I've only watched a few times, but what thinking does it need? It looks like dogs run for a ball and run back... how often do they train?

The hunting dog is not in a ring, it is offleash, near roads, it needs to stay within gun range (flushers) or hold a point for 5 minutes while the hunter catches up. Right there is a need for balance. The dog must want to find the birds, but it must also be able to stop and control its range, while staying out of the road.

Bird dogs can have very high energy, and some of them are pretty bad in the house, but most can settle down in the house until it is time to hunt. Lab puppies aren't for many homes, but a grown Lab has been bred for living with the family from the beginning.
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  #24  
Old 04-25-2008, 11:16 AM
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They kinda scare me too psy...they seem quite high energy and focused.
This is why I was asking for clarification on what Performance was being discussed...but I think from reading the first post...they did mean to EXCLUDE hunting and herding and original purposes from the Performance group.
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  #25  
Old 04-25-2008, 11:27 AM
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I think people need to remember we're not talking work we're talking sport.

Field labs DO have their problems, though. (I saw them mentioned earlier) It depends on the breeder and what type of work/trial they're breeding for. I'd know, we had a field lab before. I'd take a nicely bred field lab over a bench dog any day but there are field bred dogs bred especially for trials that are what I consider horribly wrong in both looks and temperament (neurotic). At least in that breed the extremes can and do go both ways.

People who are in highly split breeds need to remember not all breeds are the same way. Things vary between breeds. Those of us in breeds that aren't split would like to keep it that way.

A lot of people get into this knee jerk reaction of conformation = bad, and don't really look at the big picture. Each breed is in a very different place... Take each breed as its own. think of its purpose and what it is used for today and then decide what you believe is the best type of breeding program for that breed. What defines the breed and how do you go about making sure that remains in the lines?

I honestly don't have much of a problem with people breeding dogs for work/conformation/sport whatever but they need to be honest. If you're breeding for ______ say so and acknowledge what you're losing. In a world full of people breeding with absolutely NO plan or reason, I see little reason to harp on someone who is placing their pups in good homes and health testing and breeding for a reason. Once again so long as they're honest. Though, I'd much rather see people breed new breeds for these purposes rather than change existing ones. (Or at least rename them!)

I'd much rather live with a conformation bred BC than a flyball bred one. Both dogs you can argue are well away from the origins of the breed. I'm really interested in getting a BC actually in the next few years. Probably rescue, if not it'd be a working bred pup for sure, but that's besides the point...

I used to hate border collies. Do you want to know why? It was because every one I had been around was neurotic off the wall. All were performance/pet bred dogs. Over the top drive with no stop is not correct even if these dogs are less flashy than conformation dogs. Conformation dogs can be lacking in drive but at least they tend to be easier to place...

Obedience and agility don't realy mean too terribly much unless you're breeding a new type specifically for that or looking at more than one aspect of that.

Ideally every breeder could balance everything perfectly but it doesn't work that way.
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Old 04-25-2008, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoundedByHounds View Post
They kinda scare me too psy...they seem quite high energy and focused.
This is why I was asking for clarification on what Performance was being discussed...but I think from reading the first post...they did mean to EXCLUDE hunting and herding and original purposes from the Performance group.
I read the OP as talking about sports like obedience, agility, flyball, etc. Things that aren't limited to one breed or a way to really test a dog as compared to its original purpose.

Like breeding Border Collies for flyball as opposed to breeding them for conformation or working for an example.
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Old 04-25-2008, 11:33 AM
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Where is this "Europe" of which you speak?

You do know it's made up of a kabillion countries? All with their own ideas of what's what?

Just a point... it grates on me when people say "Europe" as all being the same... it's not.... AT ALL.

Would be like me saying.... You know, I heard that in the world, you can't do X... Y.. or Z...


Anyway.... carry on.
Actually I lived in Germany for well over a decade. And did a significant amount of traveling on business throughout "Europe." I recall vividly being at a plant in Birmingham (UK, not Alabama) and hearing one of employes talk about going to visit "Europe." This I suppose explains why the UK is still using the while "Europe" has a common currency, perhaps you've heard of it, it's called the Euro ().

And I didn't realize that "kabillion" means "27," I'll have to remember that.
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  #28  
Old 04-25-2008, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Psyfalcon View Post
Flyball dogs scare me. How is it from hunting dogs? I'll admit, I've only watched a few times, but what thinking does it need? It looks like dogs run for a ball and run back... how often do they train?
I already posted a massive shpeal about Flyball, in the BC breeder thread... but....

I don't really see WHY Flyball dogs would scare you. Have you ever been to a tournament, and actually met any of the dogs? Or have you simply seen the races, televised or whatever?

The races are a small part of Flyball. Miniscule. The dogs might race 4 times a day, for 2-3 days at a large tournament. There are 3 heats per race; each heat lasting a few minutes total. There will be several hours of breaks in between races, in which the dogs hang out in crates and x-pens, go on walks, play in baby pools, and socialize with other dogs. If EVERY ONE of these dogs was hyper, constantly go-go-go, and neurotic, they would be extremely annoying and over-whelmed in a tournament environment. The owners intentionally hype their dogs up before each race, but the dogs are not hyped up through out the entire day.

Most teams practice once a week, for a few hours. We practice every Saturday during the summer/fall/spring months, with occasional demonstrations here and there. The majority of the time is spent doing a variety of exercises; long-distance recalls with distractions, obedience work, passing exercises, a bunch of games with the dogs, some box work, etc. Actually, we spend the majority of the time talking and watching our dogs play. It isn't just "run over the jumps, get the ball, run back again"... there is a lot that goes into training a dog for Flyball. Teaching a dog to take the jumps every time alone takes at least a few weeks. Teaching a dog to TRIGGER the box, let alone do a swimmer's turn (which is faster and safer), can take weeks or months. Gonzo was scared of the box at first, and it took a good 6 months to get him to consistently trigger it. Timing a run perfectly, so that the dog crosses the start line exactly at the green light, and timing perfect passes, is practically an art form. It takes A LOT of practice, A LOT of dedication, and a SERIOUS bond with your dog.

Flyball is more a social event than anything. Dogs get to meet and greet, and so do people. There are tons of awesome booths at tournaments, raffles, prizes, non-Flyball-related games, and you become very close with your team. I actually prefer the social aspect of Flyball way over Agility; it isn't anywhere near as close-knit.

What I don't get is all of the malice towards Border Collies in dog sports... I mean, as it is assumed, "bred for dog sports". Everyone who says all of the neurotic BCs they have met have been performance bred, did you specifically ASK the owner if the dog was bred for performance, from performance dogs? Or did you just assume? Did you encounter the dogs in their down-time, or when they were competing? Did you ever meet these "performance bred" dogs in a home environment? Are "performance" dogs NOT pets, as well? I just don't get it... I mean... there are some breeders out there breeding BCs with crazy energy, but performance dogs are not "performing" day and night! I'm sure even the most competitive owners appreciate a dog who can relax at home, too.

I'm not trying to imply that I approve of breeding Border Collies for "performance" - I don't! But, the majority of all of the Flyball BCs I knew, were indeed from 100% working lines. And they were very sweet, chill dogs when they weren't doing their "work".
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  #29  
Old 04-25-2008, 11:44 AM
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People who tout agility/flyball titles as proof of a dog's "breedability" scare me. To me, there is nothing about those titles that set them apart from a billion other dogs...almost any dog can win a title in those venues. It's why they're open to every dog out there. There's nothing specialized. You need a dog that isn't lame all around and has a little bit of brain. (nothing against agility itself, I think it's quite fun and am getting back into it shortly)

This is becoming a big thing in Aussies, breeding for agility. Yes, granted, Aussies were the original Kings of Agility before the BC exploded into popularity, but at that time it was still a fun hobby, something else to do, not THE reason for breeding a litter. Now in addition to the "Goldens in merle coats" we've got bouncing around the show ring, there are those who are amping up the energy without bringing the brains along with it.

A good solid working-line Aussie IS the perfect performance dog. The way they're put together and what they were originally bred for means that they can excell in anything from flyball, Rally, agility, etc. They've got the total package and I wish people would keep to that.
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  #30  
Old 04-25-2008, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoom View Post
People who tout agility/flyball titles as proof of a dog's "breedability" scare me. To me, there is nothing about those titles that set them apart from a billion other dogs.
True. My puppymill b*tch is ranked as the 5th or 6th american cocker in the AAC.. We've been smoking the competition. She's from some really skeazy breeding, but has 3 titles from less than a year of trialling.

I've heard some flyball people lament that they spayed/neutered their dogs of similar crappy breeding, as they now have flyball titles.. Wonderful..

I want to see a balanced dog. I'm looking at teaching Smudge how to hunt, as I'm a little sour on conformation right now... sure performance titles would eb nice too. But As a cocker, hunting ability is something that would make me prouder.
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