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Old 04-25-2008, 10:22 AM
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drmom777 drmom777 is offline
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But the same can be said of a gun dog- how many dogs bred to hunt pheasant do we need? Or any other breed that was vreated with a specific purpose in mind, especially the sporting breeds. The sports have changed, but the general idea remains the same, and the dog world is not static.

I have no problem with it at all. Historically dogs have been bred with various purposes in mind and that is why we have such a delightful array of breeds to choose from.

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Old 04-25-2008, 10:34 AM
Brattina88 Brattina88 is offline
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I see a point, and I guess I can say that I'm "okay" with it. I agree with Red.

BUT - why breed a for performance when there are so many high energy dogs in shelters who don't typically get adopted? Unless the adopter does something with them, has a job in mind, etc. jmho

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Old 04-25-2008, 10:36 AM
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I have heard of some horror sporter collies, but I'm talking about breeding this responsibly. Breeding for dogs that DO have off switches, that double as nice pets and fantastic performance sport dogs.
Our girl Mac makes a great little flyball dog, our guess on her breed is whippet/kelpie/fox terrier. She has the Fox Terrier tenacity (sp?) whippet speed (well not quite, but she's fast) and the kelpie drive. But if its raining, she'll stay inside and sleep all day. She's small enough to be a pretty good height dog, but long legged with a good judge of the jumps so she clears ground fast. You hold her and wait and she just stands and stares, the second you tell her to go she's off full speed. But... she was a glamble, a pet shop puppy we got lucky on.

I suppose it would depend on whether they were bred only for sports or for herding or for comformation. I do think a lot of lines differ so much they are almost speerate breeds. Like Kelpies for instance, a show kelpie and a working kelpie are 2 completley different dogs IMO, breeding them together would only create more crossbreds.

Originally Posted by Brattina88 View Post
I see a point, and I guess I can say that I'm "okay" with it. I agree with Red.

BUT - why breed a for performance when there are so many high energy dogs in shelters who don't typically get adopted? Unless the adopter does something with them, has a job in mind, etc. jmho
I was thinking about this, but it goes the same with dogs with say, herding instinct. There are lots of dogs with instinct in shelters loosing their lives, but we still need breeders to keep a "guarenteed" instinct alive. My next dog will most likely be from a breeder, I would like to know what I'm getting, unless you go for an older dog that you already know its temperment, it can be lot of guesswork. Then if you get an older dog, your looking at possibly sorting through its old issues first before you can even start on training.
My other reason is health, I love Buster to death and I will DEFINETLEY be rescuing in future, but he isn't very drivey and he does have HD developing. Which does limit us.

It all gets very complicated when you start thinking about anything in depth

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Old 04-25-2008, 10:37 AM
doberkim doberkim is offline
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It comes down to careful placement - some dogs are not MEANT to be family dogs. If you are breeding high drive active dogs that aren't suitable for your average family that will not work them then DO NOT PLACE THEM WITH A FAMILY.

Responsible working dobe breeders don't seem to have a problem placing their dogs in working homes - they have huge waiting lists. If you don't have enough homes available to place all the pups, then don't breed the litter.



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Old 04-25-2008, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by 2dogmom View Post
Why can't we have both? To me performance will always be more important than conformation. But from what I understand, it is not possible in Europe to win a conformation title unless the dog has already won some kind of performance title. Someone who knows the details might be able to elaborate better and I would be interested in learning more about how this works.
Where is this "Europe" of which you speak?

You do know it's made up of a kabillion countries? All with their own ideas of what's what?

Just a point... it grates on me when people say "Europe" as all being the same... it's not.... AT ALL.

Would be like me saying.... You know, I heard that in the world, you can't do X... Y.. or Z...

Anyway.... carry on.
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Old 04-25-2008, 10:47 AM
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Again...what do you do with the one's that don't have "it" then? If a person is seriously competitive breed TO WIN...what is to become of the one's that do not make that high high cut? They might not have IT...but they do have enough of IT to not make a good pet...

What alternatives are there for these dogs...if not families? One could say...the casual sport person..but does that impact the active dogs, in shelters that might've worked just as well for those people?

In conformation the "dumb" stereotype that I see persists even here...does not at least make these animals unsuitable for family companions or casual fact it might make them more suitable.

I know plenty of folks with hunting line hounds that have the very devil of a time with them. The hound was not a good enough one for the hunter to keep...but it is good enough to need HOURS of run time per day and be an escape artist to follow scent. I admire the drive and interest the hunting hounds have...but agree that they perhaps aren't the best pets. But being that they are often sold for a lot LESS than a conf. hound, or even a rescue hound...what are the alternatives?
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Old 04-25-2008, 10:53 AM
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Laurelin Laurelin is offline
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Unless you're breeding a new strain that is planning on becoming its own breed bred solely for sport, then I don't think it'll work.

Sports do not normally define a breed. Many breeds are good at it and I feel you'd lose a lot in the way of what makes the breed unique and move towards faster, drivier dogs which is not always appropriate.

I have two very performance based breeds- shelties and papillons. Both excel in sports because of what their breeds already are. I love seeing breeders breeding these two breeds with sports in mind. They should be capable to do these sports. However even though that is true there's also a correct temperament, look, etc that these breeds have.

In working breeds a dog is defined by what it can do, in companion breeds they're defined by a temperament as well as a look. Many times these are not entirely compatible with the best dog for sports.

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Old 04-25-2008, 11:23 AM
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pitbullpony pitbullpony is offline
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Default Performance horses like performance dogs?

I would be careful looking to the performance horse world as an example.

Just as the lead and feeds often have no future beyond conformation classes; some highly bred performance horses have no future beyond what they are bred for, their conformation and disposition can sometimes preclude them from a "pet" home; when the competition is over ~ not as much as dogs; but still a problem that horse breeders have to address ~ there is too much focus in the horse world on specializing vs. all-around. You would definitely want to know where your market is.

Balance is key; whether we are talking about dogs, horses or fish (Bettas are lovely to look at; but those fins man!)Too much breeding for pretty and you lose brain; too much breeding for brain and you may lose pretty, but you also lose a great portion of the pet-owning public who can't handle a dog that "driven."

I think the dog world has many breeders who are producing well rounded dogs that can reflect the breed standard and still go out and do the job; and pass health clearances; I think what we need is smarter consumers. Stop buying the JRT because it's cute; no that BC is not going to be happy in a crate for 8 hours when you are at work; your Chi is not a purse ornament (only); your APBT is quite possibly going to be dog aggressive and yes that is normal and he hasn't been abused. Too many people do not take into account all that is necessary to adding a sentient being into their lives.

Yes there are idiot breeders out there who don't know what they are breeding; creating mixes who are supposed to have the qualities of one breed carefully mixed with the qualities of the other, breeding over-the-top high performance breeds or miniaturizing already tiny toys; but if you do your homework as a RESPONSIBLE OWNER you can find something that works for you.

From the various performance forums that I visit; the concerns of over-the-top dogs are often discussed; but many of Joe Q Public wouldn't get to touch the offspring of the over-the-tops; many of these pups are given to friends to work with, sold to people who are already in the sport. I imagine it is the same with hunting dogs; the good dogs are already spoken for before the female is even bred.

I don't know how much of a problem over-the-top purebred dogs arriving at shelters is; if anyone wants to put together a poll re: what is at their local shelter; that might prove interesting.

We have 3 shelters near us; 1/2 million plus people living in a 1/2 hour driving square;
In the biggest city; the dogs available are; 22 in #

9 are alleged puppy mill dogs that are in for fostering
3 are 1 yr and under pups that are described as needing more training and "active"
7 are adults and are described as family or gentle

There is a ShepXMalamute that is described as hyper
There is a GSD X that is described as active
There is a ShepXBeagle that is described as an only dog.

The next shelter has; 8 dogs

4 LabX - req training or high energy (some are pups though)
A BoxerX described as protective; a GSDX - high energy, a ACD - nervous, the only purebred dog is a beagle described as a sweet dog suited for a family.

The third shelter is very much the same story; a lot of crosses, most younger pups to 3 years, high energy. A few older dogs whose owner's have surrendered them. This shelter actually had 2 purebreds that were problem dogs; an eskie who was pushy/energetic and a Shih tzu that bit kids.

Very few purebred w/problems, many 8-12 mos dogs surrendered; that to me says volumes about owners handling capabilities; as opposed to what the dogs are actually like.

Better consumers would be more to the point.

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Old 04-25-2008, 11:40 AM
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Of course that's the ideal solution.

I imagine it is the same with hunting dogs; the good dogs are already spoken for before the female is even bred.
Using Beagles as an example...many people I know from meetups etc got their puppies from the paper. "Good Breeders Don't Advertise" so most of these pups are firstly BYB and secondly...hunting leftovers from JoeBob who has a small pack he hunts with on weekends. I have seen pedigrees on a couple of the BYB hounds...and it was enlightening.
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Old 04-25-2008, 11:56 AM
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I totally disagree with breeding for sport, it serves only, at least in the world of bc's, to produce dogs that are neurotic, hyper, have no ability to settle, and more often than not end up in rescue because the family that bought the pup in the first place can't handle the dog and turns it over to rescue...which is exactly what happend to my pup Whim at 10 wks of age! Although he is not neurotic, he is very high drive, and can settle in the house only because I've taught him how to.
Well, then maybe these breeders need to quite breeding or quit selling to pet homes. Not every breed of dog should be nothing more than a pet to a lazy couple who want nothing more from their dog than to lie quietly on the couch when not playing a 10 minute game of fetch or going for a short walk down the block.

I am TOTALLY against changing an entire breed to suit the whims and fancies of a few people who want to own the breed, yet do not want to own or deal with all the qualities that the breed entails.

I've got an elderly family member (husband & wife) that got a BC because they love the way they look. Too bad they got one from a working breeder (shame on him for even placing the dog in this needs to quit being the driving force behind breeding). Blu is an extremely hyperactive and "neurotic" dog to most. To me, he is frustrated and miserable because he is expected to play fetch a few times a day in a small backyard and then be a couch potato in the house the rest of the time. Instead, this dog needs to be living on a lot of land with someone to train him and work the devil out of him. That's what would make that dog happy.

As for working vs. conformation, the working dogs should be the basis of the conformation standard. After all, form follows function. And I'm sure in the beginning that's how it was meant to be. But over time, people decided they liked certain looks of certain breeds and began to exaggerate those feautures. They were then rewarded in the show ring by judges thus over time the breed's standard has indeed changed. I've seen some ASTs in the show ring, that while cute dogs, were basically a disgusting representative of where the breed originially came from. Being muscle-bound, overly stocky, with a blocky head the size of a bowling ball is NOT the tell-tale signs of a dog that came from a working background. Instead it's the signs of a dog that came from people's personal fetishes on what they wanted the breed to be like.

If you give me a field Lab and a conformation Lab, it's easy to tell the difference and I'll take the field Lab any day. Same goes for the working BC and the bred-strictly-for-the-ring BC. And the Greyhound. Hell, most of the hounds have changed. I'd really like to see one of those fancy-prancy little Beagles in the Westminster show actually prove itself as a hunting dog.
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