BC breeders, Ontario-wise?

[Lizmo]

Originally Posted by Beanie

I know none of the breeders fit what I'd like to see in a sheltie breeder so I understand everybody's hesitations or raised eyebrows. I like to see titles in confirmation, herding, AND agility... proof that the dog looks like it should, does what it should, and can perform in the sport ring too. I think if she could find a BC breeder like that, she'd be more than happy with her dog.

Me personally, I wouldn't want to see any of those titles on a breeder's BCs.

Why don't you try and contact those that I listed? Working BCs make can make for great sport dogs.

And you DON'T need a farm to have one

[JennSLK]

Lizmo why wouldnt you want to see any CKC proformance tittles on a border collie

[Lizmo]

Originally Posted by JennSLK

Lizmo why wouldnt you want to see any CKC proformance tittles on a border collie

Border Collies are a working breed. Not a show breed.

Have a BC for doing sports is perfectly fine! But I wouldn't want them bred. Working bred Borders do very well in sport homes - and most working BC breeders are more than happy to place a dog in those type of homes on a non-breeder or s/n contract.

[JennSLK]

So your saying that proformance titles mean nothing? Just because it competes in CKC events doesnt mean it wouldnt make a great working dog and shouldnt be bred. Perhaps the ownes prefer agility over hearding. It doesnt mean that they arent keeping the drive intact. Having a title isnt a reason not to breed a dog

[Dekka]

Lizmo I think if they will work and have agility titles (or obed or what ever) to me that makes them more worthy to be bred.

I have JRTs. I will make sure they have the instinct to work, and by that I mean I will take them out in the field with real live quarry-not just to an earth dog trial where its all fake. But I also get them titled in lots of other things to prove their versatility. Many of the people I know who have BC for agility also do herding with them.

[Lizmo]

Originally Posted by JennSLK

So your saying that proformance titles mean nothing? Just because it competes in CKC events doesnt mean it wouldnt make a great working dog and shouldnt be bred. Perhaps the ownes prefer agility over hearding. It doesnt mean that they arent keeping the drive intact. Having a title isnt a reason not to breed a dog

No, of course not. But for the this BREED, show titles (and even agility/flyball/etc. titles when picking a breeder) they mean nothing to me.

Originally Posted by Dekka

Lizmo I think if they will work and have agility titles (or obed or what ever) to me that makes them more worthy to be bred.

*This is talking only about Border Collies*

I guess it's hard to explain. To me, a dog that does agility, flyball, obedience, or whatever, isn't going to go as far in herding trials as a BC that doesn't do those things.

It all goes back to what the breed was originally bred to do, and trying to keep that alive.

[LauraLeigh]

Originally Posted by Lizmo

*This is talking only about Border Collies*

I guess it's hard to explain. To me, a dog that does agility, flyball, obedience, or whatever, isn't going to go as far in herding trials as a BC that doesn't do those things.

It all goes back to what the breed was originally bred to do, and trying to keep that alive.

Really??? Why would being able to title in agility take away from a dogs ability to do its job? I have never heard of that, I am not trying to be argumentative just wondering why you feel a titled agility or flyball dog would be not as good at a herding trial?

I also know a farmer here who has a working BC, that rarley leaves the farm, She does her job well and is a pleasure to watch but the couple of times he tried a "trial" type setting they bombed.... Yet the dog does her job in a real situation very well. This bitch is from Quebec and from a working farm, beyond that I now nothing about her breeding though.

[Beanie]

So you're saying BCs aren't capable of being versatile the way other breeds are?

edit: I know that probably sounds argumentative and I don't mean it to, but like Dekka, I expect to see a variety of titles on a dog to prove its versatility. I'm very very surprised to hear that BCs can't be versatile, and if you ask it to be, you're somehow making it less capable of doing what it was originally meant to do...

[Laurelin]

Originally Posted by LauraLeigh

Really??? Why would being able to title in agility take away from a dogs ability to do its job? I have never heard of that, I am not trying to be argumentative just wondering why you feel a titled agility or flyball dog would be not as good at a herding trial?

I also know a farmer here who has a working BC, that rarley leaves the farm, She does her job well and is a pleasure to watch but the couple of times he tried a "trial" type setting they bombed.... Yet the dog does her job in a real situation very well. This bitch is from Quebec and from a working farm, beyond that I now nothing about her breeding though.

I have always wondered this.

*quick hijack*

I had a field lab... I know for a fact that many labs bred for trials are a completely different animal than those bred to hunt. Drives are different... build, etc. Trial dogs often are faster, skinnier, leggier, less coat, thinner tail, drivier, etc. You could argue that many trial dogs are just as 'wrong' as purely conformation dogs.

My field lab wouldn't have done well at trials but he was a great retriever and really good at the job he was supposed to do, which was a gentlemen's hunting companion. He couldn't retrieve as well as trial dogs on the fast/shorter intervals, but he could retrieve for a long time and was much better built imo to handle water retrieving. (he had the thick coat, thick build, and rudder tail many trial dogs lack)

Of corse, this does depend on the style of trials one is training to.

Are BC herding trials not the same way? BC people seem to put a lot of emphasis on trialing... I guess that means BC trials are more comparative to actual farm herding than gundog trials are to lab retrieving? How are they judged? Efficiency? Or speed? Flash? I don't really know.

If you want to start a new thread, I'd be up for that as well.

ETA: Too many politics, which is why my BC is going to be a rescue- much easier on me!

[Lizmo]

Originally Posted by Beanie

So you're saying BCs aren't capable of being versatile the way other breeds are?

No. BC are VERY versatile. But if your going after the best herding dog you can get form your dog, wouldn't you consentrate on herding?

BC are very, very versatile in things like Agility, Flyball, Showing, Therapy, or whatever. But herding it's a different thing. I'm not sure, you'd have to talk to someone more experienced than me to see if they could be versatile in Herding, too (and still be the best they can be).

Really??? Why would being able to title in agility take away from a dogs ability to do its job? I have never heard of that, I am not trying to be argumentative just wondering why you feel a titled agility or flyball dog would be not as good at a herding trial?

Because, correct me if I'm wrong RD, you want the focus to be on the sheep. Not the handler. In all those things you've mentioned, the focus is on the handler. Thats why alot of working breeders don't do much (if any) obedience with their dogs apart from a recall, and normal stockdog commarns (Away to Me, Come Bye, Walk Up, That'll Do, Lie Down).

ETA:

[How are they judged? Efficiency? Or speed? Flash? I don't really know.

They are judged on time (they have a limit), outrun shape, how they handle the stock, how many commands the handler must give to the dog, if they make it through the gates, and the drive. I might be missing something though.