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  #31  
Old 04-15-2008, 06:48 PM
Buddy'sParents Buddy'sParents is offline
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Holy Moly. Good to see you, Carrie!
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  #32  
Old 04-15-2008, 06:54 PM
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Laurelin Laurelin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy'sParents View Post
Holy Moly. Good to see you, Carrie!
I thought the same thing!

A nicely put post, imo.
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  #33  
Old 04-15-2008, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
IMO there is no justification to cause a dog pain. There is no place for such devices in training. It may work instantly. But taking time to train a dog gets at the root of the issues rather than supressing them. And this hasn't taken long at all to train my dogs and some other peoples' dogs....a matter of a few session to get a very good hold on the behavior.

This is the method I wrote out for someone and have used on clients' dogs. (I'm training now) It worked on my VERY yappy Chihuahuas and my mixed breed. And it worked quite quickly. Everytime they hear the word, "enough," they come running for a treat. After a while, the treat will be put on a variable reward schedule so they won't need a treat every time.


Bark Training


Well, my way isn't to correct the barking as in a verbal reprimand type thing. That's telling the dog that barking is a no no. And it's not. The dog is stressed and barking. It may not even be bad stress necessarily, but she's worked up. So, punishment wouldn't be appropriate because it can cause the dog to get more worked up and associate the trigger with punishment. You want to avoid that.

It's confusing to a dog to be able to do something like that sometimes and sometimes not, so a correction could be confusing. So, instead of looking at it like stopping the barking, I'm focusing in my own mind on what the dog is to do and giving him something to do. But first, the barking is put on the "to do" list. (I'll explain in a minute)

And I don't wait for real life situations to come up to do the training...hardly ever in any situation. I set up the environment I want.... to practice and make it easier for the dog to succeed. (at first). Ignoring the barking which goes on and on doesn't work because she is being self rewarded. It's satisfying to her to bark. And a few "thank you" barks are a good thing to let you know that someone is out there. The window between her and her trigger is a barrier and it causes frustration. That's why she's OK outside.
Besides the training, you'll need to address and take into account any underlying socialization deficits, lack of exercise or any lack of mental stimulation etc. Resolving the underlying cause is the main intervention.


Here's the method I've used and it works if you're consistent:

Put the barking on cue...say "speak" or "bark" (whatever cue you want, just keep it the same) You can use a hand signal too if you want. I open and close my fingers against my thumb like my hand is imitating a mouth, like you'd do with kids when they talk too much.

Immediately after you cue (not more than a second or two after, get the dog to bark by having someone knock on the door or whatever else will make him bark.
Dog barks.


Praise..."gooooood!" (no treat, just a little praise)


Give cue...."quiet" or "enough" (I use enough, but whatever you choose, just make it the same.) And immediately after, show the treat to prompt quiet....hold the treat in front of his nose...get him distracted until he is quiet. Hold the treat for 3-5 seconds and then give it to him.

Repeat with less and less visibility of the treat prompt but still give it to him after perfect 3-5 second quiets.


Repeat with longer and longer durations of quiet before giving the treat.


Practice with lots of visitors or whatever else triggers the barking. Vary them.
Do it over and over till the dog gets onto this game. And it is a game. It my take a few sessions so keep it up. You'll know that the dog gets it when he barks on the cue and doesn't need the door knocking or other noises to set him off. And he quiets on the first cue to quiet without being shown the treat. Still give him a treat but take it from somewhere he won't notice so much, like your pocket or a table top. (later, once reliable, you'll put the treats on a variable reinforcement schedule)

If he ever starts to bark during a quiet time with even a half attempt at a bark or a tiny soft bark, tell him "woops" (a no reward marker) and start your count over again....1,2,3,4,5...He has to know that barking during the quiet time lost him the treat. He needs to give you 3-5 seconds of perfect quiet after you cue the quiet.

Practice this by going back and forth, back and forth between the cue to bark... and the cue to quiet...lots of times before trying it out in real situations. Set up the situations so you can practice better. Expose him to a wider variety of sights and sounds if he is especially easily set off.

Many people give up because they never get past the hard part. Memorize the instructions and understand them completely. Practice, practice. This process works if you give it ample training. It can seem like it's going nowhere the first few times and most people never make it past the initial hard part. The first few times, the dog will respond poorly so you must be ready with some very tasty treats. If he messes up once you've decreased the visibility of the treats for a while, go back to showing him them again for a bit. (Often, dogs that have been trained using more traditional methods take a while to get onto the game because they haven't learned about doggie zen) They’re not accustom to controlling their own behavior because someone else is controlling it for them.

When he's been doing this for a while and he barks after being told to "quiet," he must get an instant time out away from the action, which most dogs find fun and stimulating. Having to leave the excitement really bothers most dogs. Timing, of course is vital as always. Once you've given the "quiet" cue and he barks, he must immediately get a "Woops" (too bad for you) and he is quickly removed to the isolation area. Do not let him out if he barks. Wait for a lull of about 5-10 seconds first after having been in there for a minute or two.

You can also do a down-stay. A lot of dogs don't bark when they're lying down.

It is very likely that it will get worse before it gets better. Your dog has been barking for a long time this way and when something has been working and then it doesn't, he's going to try and try some more. The sudden shift in the rules will likely cause some confusion at first. But then there will be an extinction burst where by he tries and tries and the last time he tries before he gives up because it's not working, he's going to give it all he's got. Keep at it. This will pass. Once he finally gives up for good, the behavior will extinguish. It will extinguish because it doesn't work to bark. Nothing satisfying comes from the excessive barking and no behavior exists when there is no motivator. BUT...something better happens, that works better when he hears the word, "quiet." So that new behavior will be taken on.

The trouble with force based methods, intimidation, aversives and all that is that it tends to regress badly and often, fairly soon. I went that route for years and it never worked. Power struggles don't work. And primarily, it doesn't get at the root of the issue which could be a bad socialization history or some other fear or even excitement over seeing a dog pal. You don't want to escalate that. Associating the other dog or whatever triggers a dog to bark manically with that kind of punishment is that the dog is already stressed, emotionally and physiologically (heart rate, adrenalin, respiration levels are higher) and it further associates the trigger with more of a stressful time than he was already having. It doesn't help the dog to calm down. It only shuts a dog down so he looks calmer but he's "stuffing it." Showing the dog that good things happen in the presence of the trigger and for obeying your cue makes for a much more reliable skill and a much happier dog. It's also less wear and tear on the owner in the long run.

Once the behavior is quite well on it's way, practice this in different environments, locations, contexts and various triggers. Get the dog to generalize this behavior in any kind of situation, anyplace.

I have two yappy Chihuahuas and one loud mouth mix breed... and believe me, if any dog can bark, they can. LOL. I used this method and was lazy with one of my dogs. In the last week or so, I've been practicing better and let me tell you, the second they hear, "enough"....they all three stop barking in unison...absolutely suddenly and exactly together at the same second. It's great. They got the initial behavior going quite well in just one or two sessions. It took some more to get the cues independent of the prompt and the door knocking person.

It can also double as a fun trick to show people. "speak" and "quiet."
Thats really interesting. I wouldnt mind trying that out, actually. Sounds like a lot of hard work!

Pebbs was outside going off on another dog, and the bark collar wasnt working. That just happened like 3 minutes ago. She was way too much in the moment for her to even care. I turned the collar up and it still didnt work. In the house all I have to do is beep it and she stops. When she sees another person or dog her hair goes on end and she goes NUTS.

She barks from the stress of someone knocking on the door or seeing something outside that gets her adrenalin going (before I beep her collar). My moms pug, on the other hand, barks from boredom, to get food when people are eating, at people, and to get attention. She barks all the time when laying down. Even when nobody is in the room, its very strange, almost creepy, lol.
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  #34  
Old 04-15-2008, 07:08 PM
PoodleMommy PoodleMommy is offline
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Hi Carrie!

great post.... I said in another thread I am hoping to train my parents dogs this summer out of their barking while i am there... I am printing your post and will be taking it with me

Thanks.
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  #35  
Old 04-15-2008, 07:10 PM
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Doberluv, have you ever thought about writting a book?? You really should... I think a lot of people would buy it, including me.
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  #36  
Old 04-15-2008, 07:35 PM
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Hi guys! Thanks. I have been completely AWOL for a long time for various and sundry reasons...then for he heck of it decided to take a peek here. This thread, (naturally) caught my eye and I just had to post that because it works very well if you put in the effort.

Reggin, that's very sweet of you to say. Yes... in fact, I am writing a book. LOL. It's a big book. (of course...you can imagine the consistency with my long posts) It's got a lot of stuff in there besides training though.

Actually Reggin, it wasn't a lot of work at all....didn't take that much time. Plus, training through and through isn't ever an instantaneous fix. There is always time (more or less, depending) and effort that goes into it.

This is an example of a DRI (differential reinforcement of an incompatable behavior). Being able to cue two behaviors which are mutually exclusive to each other...is often effective to train in by putting on cue, a behavior you're trying to get rid of. (they'll still bark anyway because that's hard wired behavior...and I'd never dream of squashing a behavior like that entirely. It has it's place) But you can gain better control over it and give the dog an outlet for this very natural, necessary domestic dog behavior.

The more the dog works for getting what he needs and loves, the more advantage you have.
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  #37  
Old 04-15-2008, 07:52 PM
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I am going to echo some of the others and say HI *waves* Carrie!

Great post! Glad you peeked in
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  #38  
Old 04-15-2008, 08:32 PM
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YAY Carrie
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  #39  
Old 04-15-2008, 08:57 PM
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adojrts adojrts is offline
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A couple of weeks ago at the Rally O fun match with my student, her Dal which she has always had a barking problem. He doesn't bark in the home but he does bark at her all the time when she is working with him or when she is coming and going, once she is out of sight he stops.

While we were standing around chatting with another lady, my student had her dog with her on leash......she was chatting and he would bark. She would then immediately turn to him, make him sit/down/sit and then give him a reward. Turn back to chatting again and again he would bark. After the third time I told her, he was getting what he wanted and to top it off he was also getting a reward!!!!!! Being ignored.....bark.....her attention on him....reward.
He had her very well trained.
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  #40  
Old 04-15-2008, 09:12 PM
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She needs to gradually increase the duration in which he keeps quiet and eventually spread out the frequency of the treats. LOL. Yes, he's an accomplished behavior chainer.
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