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  #31  
Old 01-04-2008, 11:22 AM
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I don't think I said anywhere that instincts can't be kept, or shouldn't be kept...perhaps you are confusing my posts with GP's?...in fact I think I stated examples of how "working breeds" are owned just fine and dandy by JQP.

I think there's a natural range of instinct/drive in any dog breed...some are great and some are only so so. So what? that range needn't be jacked up so high nor so low, IMO. the range of people breeding for different things is good for a breed....you never know when you might need an unrelated genetic group within the same breed...ask the Basenji people.
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  #32  
Old 01-04-2008, 11:27 AM
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lol yes I know about the basenji's I looked into them (can't find a breeder I like that will sell me one while I have JRTs) They had to go to africa to get new stock as all the dogs in NA were descended from 8 dogs.
(sorry if I misunderstood your posts..ug so tired need to go to bed earlier)
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  #33  
Old 01-04-2008, 11:35 AM
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Dekka, it's no problem. I think we have different views on some things...but that is okay. I love that you care so much about the heritage of your breed...and do your part to keep that strong. I think that is admirable.
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  #34  
Old 01-04-2008, 12:42 PM
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Gemp:

In a WORKING BREED I do think the dogs should be bred to be capable of work. Key word is "should". They aren't, I can accept that, but all I can do as a breed enthusiast is support the breeding practices that I believe in. Maybe it is elitist. Dog shows are also elitist, no? What about agility? Not everyone has the dog with the right appearance for the show ring, not everyone can afford to do agility... So should we not breed dogs for these activities too just because some people won't be able to do it?

I don't own livestock, but I take Eve to sheep whenever I get the chance. I don't own a full agility course but I take lessons with Dakota when I can. But I suppose I'm not worthy of having either dog because I'm a pet owner without the financial abundance to have both a farm and regulation agility course.

If breeders bred dogs to suit the majority, we wouldn't have wonderful specialized breeds like Border Collies or Dobermans or Filas. Work is what these breeds were created for, and only by breeding for the same work can you preserve the breed.

I've never said that someone looking for a pet border collie shouldn't get one from working lines. If they are the right home for a Border Collie, then they're the right home for one from working lines. If a sedentery person is dead-set on a BC and won't change their mind and go for a different breed, then yes maybe a "less intense pet version" would be useful. But that's not really a Border Collie they're getting, as far as breeding goes. They got a descendent of the Border Collie . . . It's morphed into a different breed, it just kept the same name as its working counterparts.
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  #35  
Old 01-04-2008, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RD View Post
Gemp:

In a WORKING BREED I do think the dogs should be bred to be capable of work. Key word is "should". They aren't, I can accept that, but all I can do as a breed enthusiast is support the breeding practices that I believe in. Maybe it is elitist. Dog shows are also elitist, no? What about agility? Not everyone has the dog with the right appearance for the show ring, not everyone can afford to do agility... So should we not breed dogs for these activities too just because some people won't be able to do it?

.
Nope...but neither need we ridicule belittle or make less of their aims and goals as breeders and dog owners.
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  #36  
Old 01-04-2008, 12:51 PM
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just a last thought. The AR movement is here and it is real. The time for the sort of divisive writing in the woman's blog...is past. the time for sniping at one another's breeding programmes...aims...goals...is past. The time for "my dog's better than yours" is past...the time for blaming he she or it for the way a breed looks now...is past.

We must all accept that in spite of our differences WE ALL LOVE DOGS...and we all would like to be able to own WHATEVER breed or mix, we want...so long as we can provide for it. There are people who DON'T want that...and they are the enemy...not anyone else who is breeding responsibly,...owning responsibly...and loves their dog or breed.


Amen. Though I certainly have my critiques of some breeding programs, etc, I will back this wholeheartly . . . we must all stand together against AR. And we must do it because we love dogs. What ever our internal squabbles are, about confirmation vs. working vs. pet . . . the precise definition of "responsible breeder" . . . etc . . . we need to stand together against those who would take away our dogs. This doesn't mean we shouldn't have those debates! They are important . . . but we should not abandon fellow dog lovers to ARists and oppressive legislation because of these quarrels. If the ARist wins, purebred/mixedbred, standard/not standard, working/confirmation . . . none of it will matter any more.
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  #37  
Old 01-04-2008, 12:55 PM
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My last post in this thread: Dekka, great posts. HBH, I couldn't agree more that dog enthusiasts of all kinds need to stick together, and I actually saw that in my breed during the proposed AB1634 (or whatever. Mandatory spay/neuter stuff) in California. When the pressure's on, people stick together more. Unfortunately it often takes AR throwing us all into a ring of fire to bring us together.

Luisa's issue (and one I agree with) is that if legislation like this had passed, TITLES would be the only way AC would identify a "working" or "breeding quality" dog. Most working sheepdogs never get a title in their lives, and most people who brag about their low-level AKC "herding" titles on Border Collies probably own dogs that are a poor example of the breed as far as working ability goes. I would even go as far as to say that most of the people with the best Border Collies *don't* bother with the arena trials that give out titles. It's like putting a college-educated person in pre-school. They might be indicative of breeding quality in another breed but not in this one.

Anyway, I really don't mean to bash show breeders. They can do what they want, but I take offense when they claim that their dog, so far removed from their original purpose that they wouldn't recognize a sheep if it fell on them, can work just as well as my "ugly mutt" that was bred specifically TO work. If that's true then my "ugly mutt" can beat their dog in the show ring. I

There IS a big demand for pets, and in the long run I'd rather see a pet dog come from a breeder who health tests, at the very least. So in that sense I am thankful for show breeders in Border Collies, if they are kind enough to newbies and pet owners to give them a chance - it keeps them from going to a BYB or mill for their puppy. Because face it, just because a breeder turns down a good, determined potential owner doesn't mean that they're going to kick all hopes of owning that breed. They just go to a different breeder. And I'd rather see them supporting breeders who, at the very least, are breeding HEALTHY dogs with sound temperaments.

Ack I'm rambling again. I knew I shouldn't have gotten into this thread, lol. Thanks for the discussion, ladies.
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  #38  
Old 01-04-2008, 01:00 PM
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Dekka & RD, I've truly enjoyed y'alls posts!
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