Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Dog News and Articles


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 01-03-2008, 09:23 PM
Renee750il's Avatar
Renee750il Renee750il is offline
Felurian
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Where the selas blooms
Posts: 94,266
Default

Title or certificate, a CGC is an Accomplishment and it makes a statement.

And no, mine don't have CGCs.
__________________
In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves. ~Buddha

Stupid is the most notoriously incurable and contagious disease known to mankind. If you find yourself in close proximity to someone infected with stupid, walk away as soon as said infection is noted.


There are few things more nauseating than pure obedience. ~ Kvothe

***8206;"silence is the language of god, all else is poor translation."
Rumi
Be a god. Know when to shut up.


Good Kharma Tags
Felurian
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-03-2008, 11:59 PM
RD's Avatar
RD RD is offline
Are you dead yet?
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 15,442
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DryCreek View Post
I agree RD, I visit her blog daily

One thing that needs to be pointed out....

Herding is a canine instinct, no a breed specific instinct. Many different breeds can carry the herding instinct and follow it to a certain level. Some breeds tend to be better than others yet there is no guarantee.

You have a larger variation of the trait within a breed as compared to variations in canines as a whole. There are those (such as Pippa ) that are born to it, while others need varying levels of training to do the job yet they will never be quite as good as a natural. And, as we all know, there are those of the breed that are at the opposite end of the spectrum and couldn't herd their kibble in a round bowl!

The fact that theres an APBT with a herding title blows breed specific traits right out the window.

The fact that any herding breed dog, (work, pet or show), shows a minimum herding ability/instinct is no surprise as it's a common trait among many breeds. It's those that go beyond and not only DO the job, but do it well and love it, that's a goal worthy of striving for in a breeding program.
Interesting thoughts, DryCreek.

Personally I disagree, I don't think all dogs carry an instinct to herd (to bring stock together or drive them to a specific point). Herding is a very refined form of prey drive. Do all breeds have prey drive, or a drive to chase moving animals? Absolutely. And prey drive is a beautiful thing that can be harnessed into extreme usefulness. APBTs as cattle dogs, for example. Are these dogs skilled at moving livestock without training? I highly doubt it. I bet when you put a drivey, untrained APBT in a pen with some sheep, the dog will chase and think it's a game. With a lot of training, this dog could become an incredibly useful stockdog in close quarters (such as arena trials in which the APBT earned his/her titles). But some breeds need to have a higher degree of natural ability in order to a job where a person can't always be right there to correct them if they're wrong.

I absolutely see what you're saying, but I think there's a difference between a dog that truly has herding instinct, and one that just does "obedience on stock". Both can be very useful with the right job and the right handler, but I fear that this could be used as an excuse (in breeds like the border collie) to breed dogs with less ability, because it's easier to do so.

I couldn't agree more with your last sentence.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-04-2008, 08:32 AM
DryCreek's Avatar
DryCreek DryCreek is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 428
Default

Quote:
I don't think all dogs carry an instinct to herd
Neither do I, but I stand by my opinion that the instinct is not "totally" breed specific. If you take a breed that is not "normally" considered a herding dog, yet it shows some instinct towards the task, I believe you could alter this breed through years of trait specific breeding. In other words, you can create a herding dog out of non herding dog stock given enough time to alter the purpose (It won't happen overnight and would require intense selection standards.)

Now, I'm also basing this on the HIC cert being talked about on the blog, if it is as easy as stated, many breeds never thought of as herding dogs might be able to acquire this cert...

Quote:
I think there's a difference between a dog that truly has herding instinct, and one that just does "obedience on stock". Both can be very useful with the right job and the right handler, but I fear that this could be used as an excuse (in breeds like the border collie) to breed dogs with less ability, because it's easier to do so.
That, unfortunately, is a breeder specific trait LOL.

Breeds were developed for tasks when the dogs showed a natural affinity for the job. Some dogs were physically built for the task, some had the intelligence required for the task. Through selective breeding in working environments these dogs became specialized for the job the working homes needed done.

But, working stock was also developed (were talking way back when) by mixing different breeds, each with specific traits towards the job required, until they started breeding true as the herding dogs we see today.

It's not a program I would undertake, LOL. I'm not one to fool around trying to create a "new herding breed". But, given enough time, I believe it is possible to do so.

It's not needed as our ancestors have already done the job, but it is interesting to theorize.
__________________
"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers."
-- Thomas Jefferson


Money will buy you a pretty good dog, but it won't buy the wag of his tail. - Henry Wheeler Shaw
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-04-2008, 09:02 AM
Gempress Gempress is offline
Walks into Mordor
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 11,955
Default

It's interesting to me how many people on this forum stress "breed for work only!" Yet at the same time, very few of us own working-line dogs. And we discourage people from getting working-line dogs as simple housepets---too drivey, requires too much work for most, needs experienced handler, etc.

I don't have problems with working line dogs. I'm all for it. But I am definately against all dogs being bred specifically for working ability. I think it's silly to put the breeding emphasis on a trait that only 0.5% of dogs (actually, it's probably less than that) really use.

I think it's elitist, plain and simple. We're wanting delegating these breeds to a priveliged few who have sheep to herd or ducks to fetch---ironic, considering how *few* of us on Chaz who own these working breeds actually do that. Wait, I forget the usual working dog owner's motto---"Oh, but that doesn't matter in my case. I use that drive for other activities." As if there aren't perfectly wonderful mutts or toy breeds out there who can do weight pull, run agility or learn Rally-O.

Whether we want to admit it or not, almost all of us with dogs bred for jobs simply don't need that dog's original skills. We don't. We get the breed because we love the look, the temperament, the intelligence, the history, the coat, the size. Not because we have geese that need fetching or lost children to find. So why do we keep insisting that all dogs of that breed MUST be bred for working ability?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-04-2008, 09:09 AM
HoundedByHounds's Avatar
HoundedByHounds HoundedByHounds is offline
Oh, it's *you*
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: N Texas, USA
Posts: 8,415
Default

My guess would be...control issues...personally. Dog people have those a lot...do as I say not as I do is a close second.
__________________
Gina H.
"Run with the dogs, tonight...in Suburbia"-Pet Shop Boys


http://www.flickr.com/photos/ryngwraythbeagles/
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-04-2008, 09:29 AM
Dekka's Avatar
Dekka Dekka is offline
Just try me..
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 19,343
Default

but why do you want a breed if you can't handle it? For example why choose a BC if you can't handle an intense drivey dog? Why are some working lines bred to be so hard. I have met some very nice working dogs who also make good pets, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Why must we destroy the very traits that makes the breed special in the first place, just so every average Joe can live with it? There are many breeds that are average Joe friendly. And some people are making new breeds for Joe public. IMO we should leave the working dogs alone when it comes to 'dumbing them down'

Just as an example. Snip has only been out hunting twice. No idea if he is going to be really good at it, but he shows a keen interest and has been shown to engage the quarry. He is also one of the best pets I have ever owned. He is friendly and out going with all dogs, is very laid back in the house, not hyper, sleeps in bed with me etc. The two can coincide.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-04-2008, 09:44 AM
HoundedByHounds's Avatar
HoundedByHounds HoundedByHounds is offline
Oh, it's *you*
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: N Texas, USA
Posts: 8,415
Default

I've seen plenty of average Joe's live with Labs, Goldens, Beagles just fine...show or field line. Bottom line is this...the demand is for pet dogs...of whatever breed. NOT working or show dogs...period. That is reality....that is not going to change..ever...no matter how much hue and cry is raised. Esp with hunting the ability for 'dog to do what they were bred for' will shrink...not expand as AR makes their progress.

The working/show folks should realize their ideals...are NOT the ideals of the majority of people who own, or want the breed...and resolve to preserve what is important TO THEM...and not push other people to think the way they do, or assume people who don't CAN'T HANDLE the breed, because that only alienates people...and gives a negative feeling about niche (meaning working...hunting...show....sport people who do NOT breed for public pet demand but for their own purposes)breeders.

Negative feelings among JQP, translates to a real lack of support when it comes to legislation,...i.e. "those snooty show/working/agility/flyball/hunting people DESERVE to lose their dogs...they don't think I'm good enough to own one, anyways".

We must always remember that DOG PEOPLE NEED TO STICK CLOSE TOGETHER because divide and conquer is the mantra of the AR movement...and when they go after the working people...like Open Field Coursers for ex or Earthdog trialers as "stressing and harming wildlife in the pursuit of their own sick brand of fun"....who will stand up for you?

JQP? who you told couldn't "handle" your breed, that they were being bad owners because their dogs don't work but instead provide companionship? or shouldn't own one, period?

Show people who you insulted numerous times about their dogs being dumbed down Barbies?

All you's general...and not aimed at anyone in particular.
__________________
Gina H.
"Run with the dogs, tonight...in Suburbia"-Pet Shop Boys


http://www.flickr.com/photos/ryngwraythbeagles/
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-04-2008, 09:49 AM
HoundedByHounds's Avatar
HoundedByHounds HoundedByHounds is offline
Oh, it's *you*
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: N Texas, USA
Posts: 8,415
Default

just a last thought. The AR movement is here and it is real. The time for the sort of divisive writing in the woman's blog...is past. the time for sniping at one another's breeding programmes...aims...goals...is past. The time for "my dog's better than yours" is past...the time for blaming he she or it for the way a breed looks now...is past.

We must all accept that in spite of our differences WE ALL LOVE DOGS...and we all would like to be able to own WHATEVER breed or mix, we want...so long as we can provide for it. There are people who DON'T want that...and they are the enemy...not anyone else who is breeding responsibly,...owning responsibly...and loves their dog or breed.
__________________
Gina H.
"Run with the dogs, tonight...in Suburbia"-Pet Shop Boys


http://www.flickr.com/photos/ryngwraythbeagles/
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-04-2008, 10:04 AM
Dekka's Avatar
Dekka Dekka is offline
Just try me..
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 19,343
Default

Well as long as there are conformation (and other shows) there will always be the 'my dogs are better' etc going on.

And I will just have to agree to disagree. I don't see why the working traits in dogs can't be kept. Its those traits that cause people to fall in love with the breeds in the first place. If it wasn't for a group of working terriermen (and women I am sure) there would be no JRTs just Fox terriers. I like fox terries, but I, and many others (pet people included!) LOVE JRTs. Sure the average JRT isn't suitable for the average Joe. But many good pet owners have great JRTs. I have worked in rescue, I have seen some great homes. Why should all of us who love the tenacity and drive of these little dogs have to sacrifice this so people who could own a bichon (great small family dogs!) can own a JRT?

I don't see how lowering the bar and making all dogs similar and easy is going to help anyone, people or dogs. So we will just have to agree to disagree.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-04-2008, 10:19 AM
Gempress Gempress is offline
Walks into Mordor
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 11,955
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
And I will just have to agree to disagree. I don't see why the working traits in dogs can't be kept. Its those traits that cause people to fall in love with the breeds in the first place.
They can certainly be kept. I don't think that was ever in debate. I think the division was over whether ALL dogs in a breed should be bred specifically to be work-capable.

And in that, I think you're right in that we can only agree to disagree.
__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:17 AM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site