Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Dog News and Articles


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-03-2008, 11:57 AM
DryCreek's Avatar
DryCreek DryCreek is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 428
Default On titles and codes of ethics

Interesting read....

http://lassiegethelp.blogspot.com/20...cs-or-how.html
__________________
"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers."
-- Thomas Jefferson


Money will buy you a pretty good dog, but it won't buy the wag of his tail. - Henry Wheeler Shaw
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-03-2008, 12:39 PM
Lilavati's Avatar
Lilavati Lilavati is offline
Arbitrary and Capricious
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 7,643
Default

That one is interesting . . . and in principle, I agree . . . i certainly agree with people not writing laws about things they know nothing about. However, though i agree in principle with breeding rock solid, great temperment dogs for pet homes . . . errr . . . just how would this is any way be managed? And besides, the public has to WANT fantastic dogs, regardless of pedigree first. In principle agree, in practice . . . ugh, it would never fly.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-03-2008, 01:14 PM
Gempress Gempress is offline
Walks into Mordor
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 11,955
Default

Interesting, but I don't agree with many of the points. Most of it sounds like the typical ranting of some working dog people, trying to make show titles seems worthless.

There are a few things I do agree with. For example, if the AKC herding instinct test is really that simple (I don't know if it is, never seen it myself), I do agree that it's ridiculously easy.

But I DON'T agree that titles are just worthless scraps of papers, or that modern show "herding group" don't have any herding instinct whatsoever.

There is one basic flaw I see in these types of hardcore working-dog people. They are single-handedly attempting to push their breeds to extinction. Seriously. How many people *need* their dogs to herd? Or haul loads? Guard livestock? Hunt boar? And as the world and technology changes, these needs will get fewer and fewer. If a breed wants to keep its existance as times change, it needs to adapt. It needs to rely on its other qualities, not just its original working purpose.

I know my view is an unpopular one. But if EVERYONE got their dog just to serve its original purpose and be genuinely useful, almost all of us would be owning toy breeds. I see nothing wrong with certain lines that have become "soft" enough to live in modern society as pets.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-03-2008, 02:06 PM
Lilavati's Avatar
Lilavati Lilavati is offline
Arbitrary and Capricious
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 7,643
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gempress View Post
Interesting, but I don't agree with many of the points. Most of it sounds like the typical ranting of some working dog people, trying to make show titles seems worthless.

There are a few things I do agree with. For example, if the AKC herding instinct test is really that simple (I don't know if it is, never seen it myself), I do agree that it's ridiculously easy.

But I DON'T agree that titles are just worthless scraps of papers, or that modern show "herding group" don't have any herding instinct whatsoever.

There is one basic flaw I see in these types of hardcore working-dog people. They are single-handedly attempting to push their breeds to extinction. Seriously. How many people *need* their dogs to herd? Or haul loads? Guard livestock? Hunt boar? And as the world and technology changes, these needs will get fewer and fewer. If a breed wants to keep its existance as times change, it needs to adapt. It needs to rely on its other qualities, not just its original working purpose.

I know my view is an unpopular one. But if EVERYONE got their dog just to serve its original purpose and be genuinely useful, almost all of us would be owning toy breeds. I see nothing wrong with certain lines that have become "soft" enough to live in modern society as pets.
Well, yes, I do agree with that point. On the other hand, the current alternative, if you want to breed "legitimately" is breeding for conformation . . . which would be fine, except that soooo many of the conformation breed dogs are bred exclusively for their appearence. There's really no place, currently, for breeding dogs to be, primarily, pets. Or there is, but its the BYBs and the mills, and we won't even discuss that.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-03-2008, 02:16 PM
HoundedByHounds's Avatar
HoundedByHounds HoundedByHounds is offline
Oh, it's *you*
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: N Texas, USA
Posts: 8,415
Default

Exactly I refuse to believe ALL the Corgi's, Collie's, Shelties surrendered to shelters because they "nip heels" or "chase cars" etc are from "hardcore working lines" No..they are from BYB's and show lines and working lines ALL...and guess what? the instincts remain..to torment or delight the owner.
__________________
Gina H.
"Run with the dogs, tonight...in Suburbia"-Pet Shop Boys


http://www.flickr.com/photos/ryngwraythbeagles/
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-03-2008, 02:20 PM
Dekka's Avatar
Dekka Dekka is offline
Just try me..
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 19,447
Default

I did like the article. I know so many dogs with no herding instinct that have their HICs. I agree its nice to have something to show the instinct is still there, but the bar is set waaayyy to low. I think the conformation ring (I don't care who's fault it is, ie the breeders, kennel clubs etc) has ruined so many breeds, I have met my fair share of dogs with ch. in front of their names that are so far off what the original was, or were so messed up tempermentally, etc. I do think titles are good, just not as the sole method of judging the dog. If I met a dog with an OTCH, a ch. a working title or 2 and a MACH (or equiv) I would be highly impressed. The dog would likely have to have a good tempement and good structure to achieve this. One title venue alone means not a lot to me.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-03-2008, 02:28 PM
HoundedByHounds's Avatar
HoundedByHounds HoundedByHounds is offline
Oh, it's *you*
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: N Texas, USA
Posts: 8,415
Default

It's always amusing to me that the "show breeder" who statistically breeds the LEAST number of animals of a given breed yearly...is always the ONLY source mentioned when one talks about the dumbing down or bad health, of a breed.

It's not the BYB's or the Mill folks...and god forbid it's the working folks.

We breed the least....under the most restriction and glaring from the public...yet we are capable of ruining entire breeds. Yyyeah.

I place my puppies...and I see newspaper ads for Beagle pups from some BS registry for $75-150...yet *I* am responsible for overpopulation, health issues, dumb issues, etc. Where do you think the parents of these $75 pups came from, I wonder...what pedigrees do they go back to? I have seen a few pedigrees and I can say...it ain't who gets most of the blame. *eyeroll*
__________________
Gina H.
"Run with the dogs, tonight...in Suburbia"-Pet Shop Boys


http://www.flickr.com/photos/ryngwraythbeagles/
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-03-2008, 02:35 PM
Lilavati's Avatar
Lilavati Lilavati is offline
Arbitrary and Capricious
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 7,643
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoundedByHounds View Post
It's always amusing to me that the "show breeder" who statistically breeds the LEAST number of animals of a given breed yearly...is always the ONLY source mentioned when one talks about the dumbing down or bad health, of a breed.

It's not the BYB's or the Mill folks...and god forbid it's the working folks.

We breed the least....under the most restriction and glaring from the public...yet we are capable of ruining entire breeds. Yyyeah.

I place my puppies...and I see newspaper ads for Beagle pups from some BS registry for $75-150...yet *I* am responsible for overpopulation, health issues, dumb issues, etc. Where do you think the parents of these $75 pups came from, I wonder...what pedigrees do they go back to? I have seen a few pedigrees and I can say...it ain't who gets most of the blame. *eyeroll*
You personally? No. Conformation breeders? Yes, or, sort of. There's no doubt that mills and BYBs are worse than show breeders by a mile. A completely defective dog can not be shown in the ring. A dog way off the standard can not be shown in the ring. A dog that is unmanagable can not be shown. So, conformation breeders are not the worse offenders. Nor are they responsible for the over population problem. In fact, many conformation breeders I know turn out wonderful dogs.

But the fact remains that there are many who breed exclusively for appearence, with just enough attention to other factors that their dogs can be shown in the ring. That in many cases breeds have been distorted almost beyond recognition (think English Bulldogs) or have had health problems exacerbated by inbreeding. In some cases, as well, the breed clubs or the standard seem to conspire to damage the breed. One glaring example is the merles other than blue rule with Cardigan corgis, which has fragmented the gene pool of an already rare breed. Great thinking folks.

But you are completely right . . . conformation breeders are not the worst offenders, and many are not offenders at all. But there are more than a few who contribute to the problem, if only by breeding for the 'fads' in a breed's appearence and by placing looks above all else.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-03-2008, 02:45 PM
Dekka's Avatar
Dekka Dekka is offline
Just try me..
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 19,447
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoundedByHounds View Post
It's always amusing to me that the "show breeder" who statistically breeds the LEAST number of animals of a given breed yearly...is always the ONLY source mentioned when one talks about the dumbing down or bad health, of a breed.

It's not the BYB's or the Mill folks...and god forbid it's the working folks.

We breed the least....under the most restriction and glaring from the public...yet we are capable of ruining entire breeds. Yyyeah.

I place my puppies...and I see newspaper ads for Beagle pups from some BS registry for $75-150...yet *I* am responsible for overpopulation, health issues, dumb issues, etc. Where do you think the parents of these $75 pups came from, I wonder...what pedigrees do they go back to? I have seen a few pedigrees and I can say...it ain't who gets most of the blame. *eyeroll*
I don't think anyone was pointing fingers.. (I breed too) BUT I do know of some breeders in my breed (thinking of one in particular) who produces HUGE numbers of puppies a year, and IMO while her dogs to well in the conformation ring, they are not good representatives of the breed and there are a fair number of health issues in the lines she breeds.

And look at the fox terrier, conformationally it would no longer fit down a fox hole. Maybe in some people's minds thats fine. To me that is ruining the breed. I have met stunning looking ch. BC who couldn't herd to save their lives..how is that in the best interest of preserving the breed? Need I mention the GSD? in one of the threads on this forum someone showed an old photo of a very nice dog and asked do they ever get breed like that anymore..the response was interesting. I lost a lot of respect for the show ring when I saw the fattest, heaviest lab win at Westminster. There is no way that dog could handle a day in the field.... these things are not being done by byb and millers.

Of course miller and BYB breeders are bad. That is a given, and really is only peripheral to the issue at hand. No one imagines they have a breeding 'plan' or have the best interests of the dogs in mind.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-03-2008, 02:55 PM
corgipower's Avatar
corgipower corgipower is offline
Tweleve Enthusiest
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: here
Posts: 8,233
Default

Morgan comes from the top lines in her breed ~ on both sides of her pedigree. She has a list of health problems a mile long. I have no doubt that those problems are coming from the line that she's inbred on. But no one who is breeding that line or who bred some of her ancestors even want to discuss it. These lines prodice some great workers and some beautiful corgis. But that's not really helpful when she has a hormone imbalance, a heart murmur ~ because her heart is too big, a history of pancreatic problems, hips that are loose, and knees that luxate.
__________________
The slayer of all things happy since 2010
Kibble feeder since 1973

Extreme owner of four herding dogs

puzzles, poetry and so much more ~ Doggy Puzzles created by me
sleep!!!
My dog Votes!
proud member of the MUMS 2009 7th place team CISRA 2009 1st place team SUMS 2009 2nd place team
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:37 AM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site