Doberman vs. GSD

[showdawgz]

My oldest Czech male who is nearly 70# hits very hard and can easily knock the decoy down. He moves so fast that his impact is incredible. Bigger doesnt mean stronger or more powerful.

It is MUCH harder to get a dog that does PP to move to Schutzhund than vice versa. PP dogs civil drives are way higher and would more and likely be considered "dirty" in the sport of schutzhund. Protection is not a game to these dogs. Its alot easier to give a dog a little (ie a sleeve in schutzhund) then giving them more (body suits) than to give them full range and then tell them they can only bite one specific area.

PP dogs have a wider range of personalities than schutzhund dogs. Sch dogs only need a decent prey drive to get titled. PP dogs need to be confident (either as a whole or can be over confident where they love a good fight and know they will win, and seek out a fight). Then there are sharp dogs who are always on guard (these can be great PP dogs IN THE RIGHT HANDS ONLY!!! These are not for family/home protection. They are for people with experience who know how to ease the dog's stress throughout its life. It doesnt necessarily mean they are weak nerved, its just they have a very low threshold for agression, and these dogs must be watched. It all depends on what kind of dog YOU want. And what you expect from him/her.

[DanL]

showdawgs my point on pp dogs moving to sch is based on ability only. The pp dog has the ability to do sch- it might not be easy to retrain the dog to do a bark and hold instead of a bite, and other aspects of the sport, but the overall drive and ability is there, where many sch dogs wouldn't make it in pp at all.

Bigger doesn't always mean more powerful, but bigger doesn't always mean slower either. A 90# dog moving at the same speed as a 70# dog is going to hit harder simply because of the difference in mass. It's like being hit by a linebacker instead of a defensive back.

[showdawgz]

Originally Posted by DanL

showdawgs my point on pp dogs moving to sch is based on ability only. The pp dog has the ability to do sch- it might not be easy to retrain the dog to do a bark and hold instead of a bite, and other aspects of the sport, but the overall drive and ability is there, where many sch dogs wouldn't make it in pp at all.

Bigger doesn't always mean more powerful, but bigger doesn't always mean slower either. A 90# dog moving at the same speed as a 70# dog is going to hit harder simply because of the difference in mass. It's like being hit by a linebacker instead of a defensive back.

Ok, I understand that, and I completely agree that most Sch dogs cannot do PP.

My WG working line male (100#) is very fast and agile for his size, but my 70# male can run circles around him, not because he is smaller, but because he is very intense in all that he does, including running. It depends on the dogs drive and intensity not size. I used to think that smaller GSD's weren't powerful until I got a smaller male and realized that Czech line dogs (who tend to be smaller) do make up for their size with their agression and drive.

[DanL]

Something else I was thinking of- regarding targeting bites in PP. We actually spend a good bit of time teaching the dog to target bites on the suit. Back bites on each shoulder, middle of the back, frontal bites, leg bites. It's not so much of a run down field and bite anywhere you want, though, if a dog does bite anywhere and has a good full bite and doesn't act dirty by moving all over, that's ok. Our unfortunate decoy got one right in the butt from Gunnar last weekend, and it was a good bite and he didn't let go, and dragged him to the ground by the rear. If he was all over, biting the rear, then moving to other targets, then we'd go back to more basics to reinforce one good clean bite. Targeting is important because if you get to more advanced stages where weapons are involved, you want the dog to target the weapon hand. Doing a leg bite on a bad guy who has a knife or gun isn't going to be very productive for the dog.

[showdawgz]

I completely understand. Thats why I feel true PP dogs cannot do sch because they target areas of the body that can cause them harm instead of just focusing on a sleeve. In sch they would target the stick/whip. I learned that the hard way. I started Schutzhund with Keelo (my czech male) and realized his civil drive was to high. He has a nice full bite but when the helper went to tap him with the stick he immediately went for that arm. I dont like giving my dog only one option when it comes to biting. I dont want them to think they can only go for the arm if a dangerous situation does arise. And in all honesty, if I was in danger I could care less if my dog has a nice full grip, I want that person taken down any way they can.

[Dakotah]

what is PP?
I cant understand showdawgz or DanL post without knowing what PP is. haha.

[Zoom]

Personal Protection.

This is fascinating information...I really want to go see a trial now.

[heartofglass]

What exactly is personal protection? I keep reading that Dobermans are people-oriented because they were originally bred for that specific job, but I'm not entirely sure what it entails. Take the human bodyguard who protects a public figure from being harmed/harassed, could his/her job be done by a protection-trained Doberman?

I've never interacted with a Doberman, so I don't know what the breed's personality is like, but appearance-wise they are my favorite breed -- they're such insanely beautiful dogs!