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  #21  
Old 12-29-2007, 10:06 AM
SizzleDog SizzleDog is offline
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Here's my take on what Mary said - and again, correct me if I'm wrong!

I don't think Dobermans are less dedicated or have less drive - they just have more of a sense of self preservation, they THINK things over before they obey.

Tell a non-thinking, blindly obedient dog to jump off a cliff to their deaths, and the dog will probably leap off, happy as a clam. A thinking dog (think Doberman) will look at you like you're nuts!

That is NOT to say GSDs don't think, PLEASE don't think that's what I'm trying to say!!!

The way I see it, the Doberman, being created as a personal bodyguard, understands that sometimes the handler is not making the right decision - they think for themselves in order to better do their job.
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  #22  
Old 12-29-2007, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
While I own / breed Dobermans, I train with a GSD breeder / owner / trainer. Consequently, there are a lot of GSDs in her classes as they are often her puppies and their owners.

It *seems* that you can drill a GSD for a lot longer than a Doberman. The GSDs don't seem to mind doing the same exercise over and over, while the Doberman is like I did it 3 times, I got it right, let's move on. The Doberman gets bored. The Doberman is a thinking breed, often described as not blindly obedient. They say that it is one of the reasons that police forces don't use them much these days - that the Doberman is not going to run into a burning building because you tell it to, it's going to stop and think h'mmm, that doesn't seem safe, how else can I accomplish this task? While other breeds will do as told because they were told. I see the GSDs in class to be like that - they do what they are asked, while the Doberman tries to put a new spin on exercises. I just don't see the sense of humour (usually) in the GSDs that I see often that I do in Dobermans. They make fun of my Dobermans and their "prissiness", the way they don't really want to lie down on the cold mats or in the dewy grass while the GSDs just plop down as told.
the gsd is more biddable than the dobe ~ the gsd is more biddable than a lot of breeds. i got bored with my gsd's.
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  #23  
Old 12-29-2007, 10:43 AM
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Interesting.

I have a question about the Doberman's sense of self-preservation. If it's too strong and they're too independent-minded to take commands, wouldn't that make them difficult to manage as personal protectors? Confronting an aggressor is dangerous for the dog... I can understand a dog thinking through the consequences of a command before doing it, but too much thought leads to less action usually..

I just found those statements interesting because every Doberman I've met has been highly obedient and responsive to his/her master, very interested in pleasing their people. Very operant dogs in general, the ones I know love to experiment with training to see if something else will get a better response.. but they're very interested in cooperation with their handler. Maybe I got the wrong impression of the breed?
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  #24  
Old 12-29-2007, 10:52 AM
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See, I've had the opposite experience. I've had an easier time getting Dobes to do what I'm asking than GSD's...granted there was no formal training going on, this was just management stuff in daycare. I have a feeling that the overabundance of BYB dogs kind of skewed my results though. But just judging from what I handled at that job, I would take a Dobe over a GSD. Except maybe for the screaming Dobes do...eish.
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  #25  
Old 12-29-2007, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RD View Post
Interesting.

I have a question about the Doberman's sense of self-preservation. If it's too strong and they're too independent-minded to take commands, wouldn't that make them difficult to manage as personal protectors? Confronting an aggressor is dangerous for the dog... I can understand a dog thinking through the consequences of a command before doing it, but too much thought leads to less action usually..

I just found those statements interesting because every Doberman I've met has been highly obedient and responsive to his/her master, very interested in pleasing their people. Very operant dogs in general, the ones I know love to experiment with training to see if something else will get a better response.. but they're very interested in cooperation with their handler. Maybe I got the wrong impression of the breed?
I think the phrase "self preservation" only goes so far with a dobe. When it comes to his/her OWN comfort or that of the person/persons they deem THEIRS to protect.........they DO put YOU first. IE.. an aggressor trying to harm you, you needing their help in an emergency, etc...

I think Sizzle might have meant "self preservation" in the sense of not wanting to be injured needlessly, cold, wet, etc...

And absolutely Dobes are obedient when trained. They just don't want the drills/practice run into the ground, they don't want you to order them to be uncomfortable...IE: Lay down in that mud puddle, Sit/Stay in the hot sun when there is shade 2 feet away...that sort of thing. They will GLADLY sit/stay as long as you want them to, but they may move 2 feet over to be comfy while doing so, LOL, still obeying..........just with a slight adjustment.

That is where the thinking/problem solving for themselves comes in
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  #26  
Old 12-29-2007, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoom View Post
Except maybe for the screaming Dobes do...eish.
Apparently you've never heard the screaming a GSD does
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  #27  
Old 12-29-2007, 12:25 PM
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Oh I have! But they didn't seem to keep it up for quite as long...or else the ones that were doing it didn't hit that "special" pitch...there's a reason I've lost some of my hearing and I'm not even 30 yet.
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  #28  
Old 12-30-2007, 10:30 AM
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You are aboslutely right, Mary. GSD's are soldiers and that is exactly what I want. I dont have time to deal with a Dobe's "prissyness" as you put it. I've had a few a while back and trained many but most refused to lay on the cold floor, put their butts completely down on the grass, ect. GSD's do think, but they understand the chain of command, and TRUST ME their handler to protect them and not put them in harms way. I can tell any of my dogs to jump through a burning building, and they will do it.

GSD's are IMO more handler oriented. My dogs have to be right next to me at all times (makes training the heeling so much easier), since they where little puppies. When we are out hiking or something, they would run ahead and turn right back around, circle me to make sure I'm ok, then check the perimeters again. GSD's IMO cannot be compared to any other breed, but thats because I know what I want and the GSD covers every aspect.
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  #29  
Old 12-30-2007, 12:51 PM
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Thanks to all who are participating in this discussion, I am learning so much!
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  #30  
Old 12-30-2007, 02:04 PM
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I think a lot of GSDs are more object oriented, many of the ones I have meet work better if there is something to get, only dog I can think of that this doesn't hold true for would be Baron.

I know both my GSDs don't like to repeating things more than five times in a row. Baron will do it but he starts to get sloppy fast once we past five. Duke will invent new ways to do it if he doesn't just stop listening.

Baron and Duke don't feel the need to be right at my side. They want me to be around them though. Duke in particular doesn't feel the need to nudge me or lay down right next to me. Even as a puppy he hated to be picked up. Baron has moments where he likes to lean on me and be RIGHT there but most of the time he likes his space. Generally when I get a hello poke from both of them and they are off.

I agree that a GSD is less serius in public. I haven't ever noticed a differnce between Duke in public and Duke at home.
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