Contact help..

[Bear Luv]

Hi,

My dog Honey Bear and I have been doing agility for a couple of months (since june/july) and we worked really hard on contacts at first, and she had them down, and when we started trialing, she totally blew them every chance she got.

I have asked others for help, and they suggest videos and methods I have tried, and didnt work. Bear wont target. She wont stop to touch a little thing with her nose no matter how tempting the cookie lol. We have been working on 2o2o, but if she is going to fast, she wont stop. I am just looking for a good way to teach a "solid" running contact. Or maybe another method.

Also focusing! I think sometimes if she paid attention to me we would do better. If anyone has any focusing tricks, how we can get better at it. Please PLEASE let me know! I am love agility so much and really want to be able to compete with her.

Diane

[MafiaPrincess]

After 6 months of training you were trialling, really? I'd wonder if you didn't spend enough time on foundation behaviours honestly. But now, she knows she can get away without doing her contact behaviour. Depending what venue you trial in, (if it's not usdaa) I'd be putting her back on if she blew them, or blowing the run and just redoing contact equipment. There was a recent discussion about running contacts on the bark list. They can be fairly complicated. I'm not sure there's a tried and true method necessarily to get them, as some dogs stride wrong at times and still miss. So running contacts aren't necessarily a fix.

[Bear Luv]

Yeah I realized that we werent ready. We do NADAC. And have been going to them, not expecting to do well, mainly just to get experience under her belt. So that she isnt completely crazy, she gets distracted easily. It helps to focus. I am a JH, so entry fees arent to expensive.

Its been hard to find a method that works for her. I have decided we arent going to compete anymore for awhile. Not until we work on her contacts. I just thought I might get some good helpful tips here.

I dont expect her to do them at all, its just hard to train since my a-frame is only 6' and not regulation size.

Diane

[Brandyb]

Hi Diane,
personally, I would start right from scratch again with contact training. Begin as though you've never done it before and retrain. My girlie does somewhat of a running contact, and I use a slow command as she nears the zone - sometimes I make her wait, others I don't - depends on the obstacle and how fast we need to go. I won't say what I do is best, or even close, but it works for us, and you need to use something that works for your dog. If you're not comfortable with using a target (I never used it) then try something else. Keep in mind, not to reward her for anything but the correct behaviour. Build her up to the contact behaviour, use a contact trainer if you can. Start slow, having her stop on the zone, then reward. Do this until you see that she's getting it. Then reward intermitantly. You can also throw in an "easy" or "slow" command, to slow her down right before the zone, and a "wait" if you like to hold her in the zone for a second to make sure that she gets it. In the beginning I rewarded from the contact ... placing the food on the zone as she got there. I now reward from me. Rewarding from yourself, instead of the equipment can help with focusing issues - rewarding from the contact point itself helps the dog to associate the "where" of the contact training. I would also recommend making her stop on the contact, especially if she's "hyper" in the ring. Allows you to get control of her for a second or two.
Two things that I like to do for focusing issues are, rewarding the dog from your mouth - I know it sounds gross, and make sure to use a dry reward (like a cookie) instead of a rollover or something really meaty (trust me, they taste disgusting). Do a few drops from you mouth standing over your dog, or in the heel position. After she realizes where the treats are coming from, use a look at me command or just look, and then reward from your mouth. So every time you say look, dog looks at your face, you drop reward. Obviously, begin to work up the time between the command and reward. you now have a look at me command that gives you full attention with hopefully some good eye contact.
Another thing that's worked out very well for me is during play, ie. fetch, every time the dog brings back the ball, hold it slightly to the side, and do not release it until the dog has looked at your face. Start very close to your face, and then slowly work away. It doesn't take long for the dog to understand the concept. In the dogs mind, once they grasp this, attention equals reward, and assuming that you have a good retrieve, throw the ball as soon as the attention is on your face. Again, build up time they hold eye contact, and build up distance of the ball (or object or treat) is from your face - out to the left, right, above, below etc etc. You can use a look command with this exercise as well, but I like to let the dog figure it out first in the begining. Its amazing how quickly they will.
I also like to make sure that the reward i'm using is attractive to the dog. If you're using kibble, and your dog prefers rollover, switch ... you'll see a better performance if the reward is more salient.
Hope this makes some sense and helps a bit, I'm sure others will have much more to add. Good luck!!!

[adojrts]

You have admitted that trialing to soon was a mistake, that is good and is the first step. It is an unfair expectation to take a dog that is easily distracted, over stimulated etc and with limited training and trial them. There is little if any positive 'experiences' that the dog will gain. We can all relate with the desire to go out and 'run' agility, even if you don't have the expectation of doing well as you stated. BUT if you train correctly and over enough time, you can often go out and be completely successful at your first trial by Q'ing and winning the class. BUT if you change your critria when 'running' at a trial from how you have trained, the dog learns that we train one way and trial another. That is a very common mistake and EVERYONE has done it at one time or another and it can takes months or years to fix it.
Training a contact behaviour takes far longer than a couple of months, regardless of which contact behaviour is trained. You have to pick one contact behaviour and train it completely, you can't try each one, train it for a short period of time and decide that the method isn't working for her. How can it, if it hasn't been trained fully and over time?
Running contacts can be very successful, but even the people who use them and have developed some excellent methods of training, will say the rate of missing a contact is HIGHER, than some of the other contact behaviours like 2o2o etc. None of them are fool proof and none of them can be trained quickly or incompletely.
Focus- you need Focus away from the agility field first, then add distractions, THEN train using the agility equipment.

You say that others have suggested Video's and other methods that you have tried. Which ones?
I have a few questions first before giving ideas on how to retrain.
When you say that she is distracted, how? Please give examples.
How much or how little control do you have? Does she break away from you and do equipment without being asked? Does she bark or bite at you when very excited? Will she hold a stay while near the equipment? Does she get the 'zoomies'?
Can you run and turn while she is either in a heel or side position? (not doing equipment, just on the flat)

I just read on the other thread that you are trying not to give up, please don't agility can be the BEST fun, its very addicting. It isn't easy, not on any level, although millions of people make it look like it is. Agility takes time to train, it is full of challenges both in training and on the course.
Yes there are some people that can start trialing quickly but the faster and higher drive your dog has, the longer you have to train.
We will certainly try to help you to the best of our abilities on this forum.
A couple more questions.....Do you continue to take classes or are you training alone? How old is your dog?

Lynn

[Bear Luv]

I havent tried any videos, and I still trying to decide which method I want to do before I go out and spend $50 on a video.

Usually she is really focused, Bear loves to run, but she also likes to smell, especially the air. And she will stop and sniff the air. Not at home, just at trials. She also is very obsessed with other dogs, so if I am not careful before a run, she will not pay attention to me, Instead, she will try and find the dog that just ran.

No, she doesnt break away and do equipment without being asked. I am not the best handler, so sometimes I do send her to wrong obstacles. She is really good about doing the course right. Out of all of our runs, she only really screwed up her Reg. 2, and weavers round. Her reg. 2 round, she wouldnt go up the DW, there was a tunnel, and she was confused, and took the tunnel. Other then that, the course was perfect. And her weavers round. The first run of the day, we were late, I didnt have time to warm her up, so she ran through two tunnels and ignored me to run around the course, she didnt go through any obstacles through. She doesnt bite at me when excited, or bark. She will bark before I let her run at home though. She has a very nice start line stay. She has gotten the zoomies once during a run.

I dont understand that question. I dont think I have ever tried it. I can do a jog heel with her on the flat.

I really dont want to give up, I am addicted.

Thats disappointing lol, my dog can be really slow, but only when distracted. Otherwise she is a really fast strongly driven dog. I am hoping I can get the most help possible on this forum, as I dont take classes.

I have never taken a class, which could be a mistake, but its not very possible to start. The closest classes offered are over an hour away. And I cant ask my parents to take me once a week to that, its not fair to them. They are trying to be supportive, but they dont understand enough to be. They wouldnt do it either. I am trying my hardest to do this on my own, and I think even if we are never good enough to be the best, thats ok with me. I just want to try and make it fun for her and me. And Bear is 4, she will be 5 this coming June.

Also, I decided to lower the contacts as far as I can, and teach 2o2o, or at least teach her to drive it to the end and try to stop, she has trouble with stopping because of her shoulders.

Diane

[adojrts]

Diane;
Well training on your own isn't the best, but it has been done (I did for a year). But be prepared to retrain some stuff, which in the long term takes longer and is more expensive. What you need to do is arm yourself with as much good ref. material that you can get your hands on. I can't remember if it has been suggested but get a subscription to Clean Run, its an amazing agility mag. and worth every penny.
Also if weekly classes are not possible, then even one class on month or a private once a month works.
If you can find someone near you to buddy up with when training is always a good plan. Especially if it is someone who is already competing and doing well.

Good luck
Lynn

[Bear Luv]

I havent subscribed to clean run just yet but I plan too. The closest place that offers agility, is like 15 minutes away. But they are full with classes for the next like...3 months. I havent been able to find anyone directly in my area willing to train with me. But I think one day. I hope to join a club and take lessons at one point.

Thanks for the advice!

Diane

[adojrts]

Hey,
I sent you a Pm with some info in it, hope it helps.
Also check out Calling all Agility Addicts (in this forum), there is some info there on contact training.
Lynn

[Bear Luv]

I havent thanked you yet, but I have been meaning to. We are working with a 2o2o method. We tried a bit of backchaining(as seen in a clean run issue) and it killed her drive. Then I got out the tunnel, and it picked up her speed and drive for the a-frame, and so she stopped only 50% of the time after that lol, but we are working on it!

Right now, I really dont want to stop and take lessons. I know it would make us better, but I want to see how far we can get on our own.

I do have a question though, for those who compete with their dogs,

Does rewarding after a run(tugging, or a treat) help focus during the run? Like they know they are going to get a cookie or something after they run, so they pay attention to you?

Diane