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  #11  
Old 11-27-2007, 09:09 PM
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I am happy to hear that Congo is going home***8230;now NEUTER the dog. Stop breeding your animals and bringing more pups into the world while there are thousands dying in shelters every day. I am thrilled that the dog is no longer being confined and hope the ***8220;death sentence***8221; is commuted but I want to see a neuter as one of the conditions of release.
Um, what's that got to do with the attacking charge. There's nothing wrong with breeding this dog is it isn't a mill or BYB, and is purebred pups to good approved homes.

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He really looks vicious in that picture, surrounded by the kids.
And I had to laugh, absolutely brilliant!
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  #12  
Old 11-28-2007, 08:30 AM
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I hope this bill goes through! We need one in Florida though. THe only law like that we have in Florida is for humans with guns i think they should amend it to include dogs too. I almost had to pay when Walker bit the guy who tried to hit me then kicked Walker because he had to get stiches (sp?) but the ACO was there and testified for Walker thank god for good ACO's.

Im sorry but if a kid came on to my property at least the ones around here and they got bit I wouldnt really feel bad or fault Walker becuase they are not taught or accompanied by an adult. Walker does not like to be approached by screaming kids and is terrified by them like most dogs and thats how the kids in my neighboorhood approach dogs. I wont even let them approach him on a walk except for the girl next doog becuase she LOVES walker and patches and has known them since we got them.
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  #13  
Old 11-28-2007, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Lilavati View Post
Well, if you really want, I could say it in legalese, complete with blue booked citations . . . but I'll spare you.
Heheh . . . oh I don't mind. Among a lot of other legal work, I've been taking legalese and translating it to clients for well over 15 years It's rare to run across an attorney - let alone a 'baby' one (newly passed the bar ) who either can or will translate. That's a skill I hope you hang onto.
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  #14  
Old 11-28-2007, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Renee750il View Post
How about the "where the hell were the child's idiot parents and why weren't they doing their job?" defense . . . That's where the blame lies.
Exactly. There are plenty of child endangerment/neglect laws already. Why don't people actually enforce them when a child is injured because they were not properly supervised by their guardians? That would solve a whole lot of problems right there.

Like leaving a 3 year old alone in a yard with several large dogs (some of which don't live there), and then destroying all the dogs when one of them bites/kills the poor baby. That's kind of like throwing a child onto the freeway, and then charging someone else (driver) with being responsible for their injury or death instead of the morons who put the child in the situation in the first place.

In addition to BSL, I'm often fighting legislation that restricts exotic animal ownership. One of our biggest arguments is for neglectful parents to actually be charged where applicable by law, for putting their children into dangerous situations, rather than passing more laws that are nearly impossible to enforce.
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  #15  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:09 AM
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Yay i really hope the bill does pass it would be a great step towards understanding dogs from a legal stand point and prehaps down the road pave the way for other enlightened dog laws and strike down more ignorant ones like BSL.

Kayla
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  #16  
Old 11-29-2007, 06:01 AM
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You might also, in the "reasonable dog" standard want to take into account what kind of bite. Did it break the skin? Was it just a snap that might not have been intended to connect? (both can be warnings) Or was it a full blow bite . . . or two or three . . .or a mauling? I forgot to put that in. A reasonable dog might snap or bite once in a given situation, but mauling would be excessive . . . though I don't think Congo was being excessive, he'd been pushed awfully far.


On the point of irresponsible parents . . . If I learned anything in law school (and from life) its that situations can be very complex. The small child with the three large dogs (two of them strangers) is an example of fairly obvious stupidity . . . but perhaps the family KNOWS those dogs and knows they are gentle. Its still not really smart, and it is dangerous, but a case of child endangerment? I'm not sure.

One thing I like about this law is that it separates the viciousness of the dog from the owner's liability . . . the owner can be negligent (Congo's owners might have been, I just dont' have enough fine detail) but the dog is not at fault. On the other hand, it could cause situations, where the dog is found vicious, despite the owner's best attempts to keep people away . . . that needs to be taken into account as well.

But we can't always blame the parents. Sometimes, we have to *gasp* blame the child. Children, like dogs, are autonomous beings. They are not robots under their parents control. And I'm convinced that our current social standard of keeping children locked in the house, under supervision at all times, chained with cell phones if they are not, is very unhealthy. Not just because it encourages obesity, but because it prevents the growth of independence and independent thought.
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  #17  
Old 11-29-2007, 06:15 AM
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I've lived in neighborhoods where parents let their children, of all ages, run wild all over at all hours. Are these parents neglectful? Yes. Half the time they aren't even home.

But the neighborhood I live in now, children are allowed out to play. They play ball in the alley behind my house, they go the the nearby park on their own, they ride their bikes on the street, etc. They are well behaved, well loved children. I'm GLAD they are allowed to do these things. I think its good for them. I'm appalled at people who drive their kids two blocks to school because they are afraid something might happen. Something MIGHT happen (but it probably wont). . . and the kids need to grow up . . .and they need the excercise.

So our tendancy to scream "bad parent!" whenever something goes wrong can be dangerous in its own right. I remember several scrapes I got into as a child that had they turned out badly, and happened today, my parents might have been charged with endangerment and neglect. . . and I think I had good parents. I was just an independent, clever child. A generation ago . . . and even more so my parents generation, there was an understanding that accidents happen. Sometimes they are in fact the child's fault . . . sometimes they are no one's fault. Sometimes, in an otherwise safe sitaution, something goes wrong.

As for chldren getting into a dog's yard, I think we really need to look at the entire situation. How well marked was the yard? What was the child doing? Were there warning signs? How old was the child? What was the dog doing? There's a huge difference between a kid climbing into a yard with a high fence, with warning signs, and an obvious snarling dog, and a kid running onto a yard (with an invisible fence) to get a ball and a dog darting out from under the porch to attack him. Now, I'd say those cases are pretty clear cut . . .where it gets difficult, and where this law comes in, is where you have a normal garden three-four foot fence, no lock on the gate, no sign, dog is there but has never harmed anyone . . . barks, perhaps . . . kid's ball bounces in the yard, kid doesn't see dog, slips into get ball, dog walks around the house, sees kid and bites . . . I'd say that dog wasn't being "reasonable" and its owner is at fault . . for not locking the gate, for leaving the dog out when he wasn't at home . . . take your pick.

But another ambigious situation . . . same dog, same kid, same fence, same ball . . . the dog is visible, the kid comes in, sees the dog (who barks or growls), runs to get the ball, and then throws the ball at the dog's head. Perhaps the kid is scared . . . perhaps he's mean, doesn't matter. From the dog's perspective, an intruder has entered, been warned, and then attacked him . . . a nice bite on the leg is in order (but a mauling might not be).

But are the parent's at fault in either of these situations? Assuming they told the kid never to go in someone else's yard, probably not. The kid made the decision on his own to get his ball, even though it was against the rules. Kids do that.
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  #18  
Old 11-29-2007, 06:21 AM
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Since I never shut up, one more post:

Then there is Flash the Rottie. Flash is a very nice dog. Fortunately, for everyone, Flash is a very nice dog. He lives behind a tallish wire fence (four feet) and a very tall wood fence in back. There are beware of dog, no tresspassing signs everywhere. I used to avoid his yard. I used to cross the street with Sarama (he does bark) when I went past. I assumed that this Rottie was a mean dog.

Flash is not a mean dog. I got to talking to his owner. Kids had been climbing in a pestering him. Taunting him, poking him with sticks (we know who they were, its THAT family on the block . . you know THAT family? Every block has one). She called their parents, and told them to keep their kids off her land and away from her dog . . . and the parents screamed at her and cussed her out. The kids came back . . . after this happening several times, she increased the height of the fence, but up the signs, and called the police on the kids.

No one was hurt . . . Flash is a nice dog . . . but someone could have been . . . and it would have been not only the kid's fault, but their parents . . not only for not teaching them better, but for ignoring a warning from the dog's owner. Frankly, I can't imagine a parent not being alarmed at a child tormenting a rottie . . . but appearently there are some . . . in that case, yeah, blame the parents. Criminal charges may be in order
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  #19  
Old 11-30-2007, 08:18 AM
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Groch Groch is offline
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Lilavati, thanks for your excellent and detailed posts on this. I hereby volunteer you to insert your analysis into all future posts requiring logical legal analysis

I need to catch up with some questions as I could not log on for a couple of days

You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilavati View Post
I suspect, if this were applied, you'd end up with something like the 'reasonable man' standard used in human self-defense/defense of others cases........If you try to look at it as Congo would, he acted reasonably (detailed description follows).....Congo didn't just act like a reasonable dog, he acted like a VERY reasonable dog.
You provide a detailed description of what happened...but I thought that this was exactly what was in dispute. Your description seems to follow what the family said. This differs from what the gardeners said......and frankly, neither one is an unbiased disinterested party. I think to jump to conclusions either way is a mistake, which is why I would defer to whatever final verdict their is from a hopefully unbiased judge who hears both sides. We are often too quick to judge without having all the facts.

Your description of "reasonable force" was excellent and enlightening. Some posters here seem to think that if they put up a fence and post the property , then they or their animals can do ANYTHING to an intruder.

Folks, the penalty for trespassing, or even robbery is not death. If you train your dog to kill anything that comes into the yard, then it does not matter how high your fence is, you are going to get prosecuted. You cannot booby trap your yard with lethal objects of any kind....animal, mineral, or vegetable.

You cannot kill to protect property, you CAN kill to defend yourself.
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  #20  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:56 PM
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which is why I would defer to whatever final verdict their is from a hopefully unbiased judge who hears both sides.
Oh, now that is an animal that is all but extinct, Groch

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We are often too quick to judge without having all the facts.
Trust me, you won't get anything remotely resembling all the facts in a courtroom proceeding.
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In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves. ~Buddha

Stupid is the most notoriously incurable and contagious disease known to mankind. If you find yourself in close proximity to someone infected with stupid, walk away as soon as said infection is noted.


There are few things more nauseating than pure obedience. ~ Kvothe

***8206;"silence is the language of god, all else is poor translation."
— Rumi
Be a god. Know when to shut up.


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