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  #11  
Old 06-24-2007, 09:53 PM
doberkim doberkim is offline
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The standards do not "keep changing" for all breeds. The FANCY THEMSELVES set the standard, not the AKC. The dobe standard, for instance, has had VERy few revisions over the past 5-6 decades!

And I take exception to the statement, that someone who does REAL work with their dogs - agility, obedience, etc is often just as strenuous and requires a significantly LARGER amount of training than some "real work" as you put it. By slighting those that choose to show their dogs in some performance venues over others, you do every breed a disservice. The fact remains, there aren't enough working homes for what breeds were originally intended for, period - we don't live in a society where people all inhabit a large farm that requires dogs to gather and tend the flocks, where the tax man needs protection as he goes from house to house in the form of his dog, or where we need dogs to protect us from lions out on the safari. For many dogs, the original work is simply not possible or practical in this day and age - and their working abilities can be tested, tried and extolled in many other venues. Athletic ability, drive, biddability, intelligence, etc is not limited to one or two venues.

Assuming that just because a dog is from a "working breeder" that is is healthier is also an incredible injustice. In the working world, MANY people believe IF IT CAN DO THE WORK, its healthy - ignoring that a dog with incredible drive will often continue to work even though its hips are ruined, its heart is giving out, etc. "Healthy dogs" drop dead from heart attacks on the field every day. Health testing is not limited to the "working" breeders, and in fact many breeds (my own, for instance), the working breeders do little to no health testing period aside from hips.

Trying to create lines where none need to be is never going to do ANY breed any good. "Working" or "Showing" - every dog has multiple aspects of its breed that need to be evaluated, and responsible breeders address them all.
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  #12  
Old 06-24-2007, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doberkim View Post
The standards do not "keep changing" for all breeds. The FANCY THEMSELVES set the standard, not the AKC. The dobe standard, for instance, has had VERy few revisions over the past 5-6 decades!
True, I did make it sound like its changing every month or quite often which is my mistake, but for some breeds it does change often enough (every few years or so????) I mean, why should the standard have to change at all if the goal is to PRESERVE the looks of the breed???????
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  #13  
Old 06-24-2007, 10:42 PM
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If the standard calls for a working dog than a breeder should show and work.

Show the dog under a breed qualified judge to learn about the dogs faults and to breed away from it.

If the standard was changed from a working dog to a show dog than the working dogs cant be shown.

Comformation in standard has ALLOT to do with a Working dog.
Often backyard breeders of "working dogs" breed dogs with less than required teeth and some breed missing testies..

Severe easty westy, hocky dogs will bred in most cases HD AND ED.,
Im proper angulation will bred easier to pop ACL's.

Sagging toplines again breed unsound dogs that have been known to require surgery for compressed discs.

Temperment for working dogs require the to dog to example.
Amendable to handling .
Often than not backyard breeders use the excuses to not show for many reasons. The dogs are OUT OF Standard, are not controlable in public and or have serious health issues.

Form follows function.

I do not require my dogs sold a potential breeding dogs to be championed
They are required to pass a TT, be OFA and or PH, and be rated Excellent
under a FCI expert judge certified to judge the breed at national levels.

Only breeding the champions and the winners and ignoring the working dogs is what killed and changed most of the working breeds today.

However if every NOVICE dog breeder is allowed to BREED what ever is in their yard .
Never proving the dogs in any way shape or form to the standard written for the ideal of the breed.
Then they will in affect change the breed and create thier own breed.
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Last edited by planet molosser; 06-24-2007 at 11:21 PM.
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  #14  
Old 06-24-2007, 10:51 PM
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2nd Post I could do nothing with the Tons of BOB BIS ribbons I have.
It does not make my dogs better than anyone else if the judge never seen the breed before.
<I am very proud of the WRITTEn critiques over 50 from the Top judges in the world experts in my breed they mean more than any Best in Show.>

What it does PROVE is A. I spent more money on proving my dogs in work show and temperament then the ones sitting at home breeding UNPROVEN dogs claiming the dogs "work" in a kennel or a yard.

B I learned a great deal about breeding m handling and training by networking at these shows. The value of this is PRICELESS to a breeder.
i have such great friends that I met at shows. Ethical breeders that I can call them and get a dog of my breeding networked back to me in any 911 case threw out the USA. When I needed to learn more about whelping it was those breeders I met that taught me more than any BOOK i own and i own over 400 books.

C In Working guardian breeds I PROVE at the shows not that I can win but that I can handle and train all my dogs to be Good Citizins i public and PROTECT when called upon,.
What use is a breeder who can NOT control thier own dogs to a buyer needing help?.

During my breeds transition from a ancient Working landrace to a dog shown in the late 50-s under the USSR rule.,
All dogs WORKED ALL dogs had jobs and once a year they were taken in front of dog experts to study comformation NOT breed type.
The dogs were rated and if missing teeth or if limping due to HD they were DQ. After the show they were asked to do a PRotection TT and obedience basic kin to a CGC without # 10.

So they did not have OFA but the dogs were asked to work and if not work they were SHOT. The show was held in stadiums not up and downs not L's or T's the dogs ran in a circle dozens about dozens of times and if the dog showed lameness it was rated GOOD not a breedable rating.

If someone wishes to breed a purebred dog they owe the breed the chance to cut mustard againest the standard.

Again all the above is for working standard for working breeds.
Not what they have done to many of these breeds like example
making a Taller JRT so they show better thus removing the shorter legs they need to go to ground.
If I had ratters I would NOT show under a standard that wanted a taller dog for more reach.
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  #15  
Old 06-24-2007, 10:57 PM
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some breeds bred to "standard" are almost a completley different breed form the same breed bred to work.
for example border collies, good show borders are pretty much a compleltey different breed to working borders in both looks and personality, i saw some show borders at a show i went to a while ago and they were a lot shorter and a lot hairier. they just didn't look like they'd make champion working dogs.
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  #16  
Old 06-24-2007, 11:00 PM
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To save me writing my essay again...

read my post http://www.chazhound.com/forums/show...t=53623&page=4 its post # 36

It is interesting 99% the working breeds we have looked very different back in the day when they worked. And people promote conformation shows as preserving the look. No they are preserving todays idea of what a working dog should look like.
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  #17  
Old 06-24-2007, 11:05 PM
Psyfalcon Psyfalcon is offline
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It may not be the AKC's fault that the standard keeps changing, but there are several breeds which have many revisions, usually led by the show dog faction of the breed club, that detract from the working ability to suit the aesthetics of the show ring (more feathering, angulation, larger size.

It reminds me of an old teacher of mine who bred Mals. One day after learning that Mals should be sled dogs a student asked if hers pulled sleds. She stammered for as second and pretty much said "sure, why not."

If thats the weight a WORKING dog breeder (Mals of all things, with weight pull available too at the fraction of time spent training a Pointer) puts on working, I don't want their dog.

Two of my all time favorite dogs never had a huge split, American Water Spaniels and Chesapeake Bay Retrievers. If I was dictator of the dog world, we'd be having working trials on Saturday morning and showing on Sunday. And no, not the other way around, "you're" dragging that show coat around the woods!
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  #18  
Old 06-24-2007, 11:05 PM
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Breeders with money who put handlers on out of standard dogs will in affect change the breed.

If the dog is at the min or max of the breed they will breed under of above the standard.

Under the right show kennel this out of standard line will get the standard changed if enough money and politics are behind the dog.

Once it is changed all previous breeders are forced to get in line and breed to the new standard or separate from the AKC parent breed club that voted the change in.

Then the sub division of working vs showing is set.
Like it was with the JRT.

My breed has voted in 7 years ago only in Russia a previous out of standard bite. FCI who governs Russia has REJECTED this standard for over 7 years thank god.

Yet the breeders in these countries are breeding OUT of standard dogs.

When not if this standard is accepted I will be that WORKING person who refuses to change the breed after thousands of years and after 100 years of a working dog standard.

Then as I am will be accused of " creating my own breed" when in fact I am preserving what god himself created.

Now that my breed has gone to the show ring and the fighting ring.
Thus removing their working abilties and altering the correct comformation and size.

We will follow down the same path most guardian breeds have.
Big fat drop dead cant work a dime show breed.
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  #19  
Old 06-24-2007, 11:07 PM
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To me 'work' requires instinct.. When searching for a breeder.. kennels of just agility dogs didn't impress me, as my puppymill dog is learning pretty fast and eventually I'm sure we can get at least low level agility titles..

So 'real' work being easier.. well, it requires instinct or serious over handling. I doubt Cider has the instinct to flush and retrieve a bird for me even with some severe over handling. So I wouldn't consider sports to be enough when any dog of crappy genetics might be able to excel. I mean to many people the perfect agility dog is a border jack.. Doesn't require a dog being within any standard to be good exactly.
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Old 06-24-2007, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planet molosser View Post
Breeders with money who put handlers on out of standard dogs will in affect change the breed.

If the dog is at the min or max of the breed they will breed under of above the standard.
I have a friend who breeds afghans. Last few years the dogs who are placing are above the height standard. She has a nice pointed male who ceased doing even mediocre in the ring, because he wasn't big enough he was in standard, but on the smaller size of it. Finally put him away for a while because it was becoming hopeless least for now.
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