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Old 06-07-2007, 10:18 PM
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DoggyDaze DoggyDaze is offline
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Default Sit vs Stand, Obedience vs Show

I have a small training conflict.

CeCe has been doing her heel, sit at stop very well. We began a class for showing this week and they expect her to remain standing after we trot up to the judge, at a 90 deg angle to boot.

She keeps sitting when we stop in front of the judge. Her stand is pretty weak also, usually requiring some physical positioning. I'm making a little headway by turning in front of the judge (to get the broadside presentation) but she usually sits as soon as we stop.

For the life of me I can't think of a way to make the show stop different enough from the obedience stop to make it clear to her.

Since we are also continuing on in obedience training, I don't want to suppress the desired stop, sit behavior.

Suggestions?

DD
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Old 06-08-2007, 11:20 PM
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Doberluv Doberluv is offline
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I am not into showing so I don't know what the rules are about giving cues etc. But I'll tell you what I do with my Doberman to distinguish when we stop walking, whether or not he should automatically sit and when I want him to remain standing. I started out with the verbal cue "stand" (which he already knows) when I came to a stop and turned my right foot in a bit and slightly turned my body in toward him....very slightly. When I come to a stop where he is to sit, I make my last couple steps just a little shorter and sort of scuff my feet and stay facing straight ahead. I still don't have the verbal cue completely eliminated. I still have to whisper, "stand" just as I'm stopping. But it's becoming more subtle. Soon, he should have had enough reps to make the association between that verbal cue and the different foot steps and body position to be able to rely just on the visual cue. I may even be able to stop turning my body toward him and only just have the different foot fall or step. I can see it coming because I'm able to make these things more and more subtle. So, again....I make a distinction between sit and stand by scuffing my feet just a tad....the last two steps for when he is to sit. And not when I want him to remain standing, but instead, go just a little pigeon toed with my right foot and turn in just a hair with my body angle. The reason I started using this remaining standing thing was because we'd be heeling along and I wanted to stop and do the backwards heeling and so didn't need him to sit. Just stop, stay standing, then "back up."

I'm sure some show people must have a better way which is for sure "legal." LOL.

p.s. Don't forget to reward tiny improvements and then withold and see if she'll give you a little better and then reinforce again.....lots and lots. And practice in different locations and contexts (sometimes during a formal training session and sometimes just randomly, out of the blue....) low distractions, then add slowly. First not in front of anyone, then try it in front of a practice "judge."

Last edited by Doberluv; 06-08-2007 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 06-09-2007, 02:08 AM
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We've had a similar issue, different venue. Cider was taught automatic sits even though we don't do formal Ob.. In rally she likes to attempt to sit while heeling in any form of circle shape if she is on the inside of the circle. I tell her to stand as we keep going. More we practice less often I have to say anything.. if we lack on practice though.. she reverts back to sitting more.
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Old 06-09-2007, 02:34 AM
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Hi doggydaze.. sounds like you're coming to the show in the morning so you'll get a chance to see how it's done, and I'll see you there if you happen to be coming early! (In the Dobie ring) Wrether you're teaching a stand for obedience or conformation, your dog has to first learn the verbal command and hand signal. (Just as they did the "sit" command) When you're competing in obedience, this will eventually be just a hand signal in the ring. Keep working your heel work as you have been, with a sit, and always with the dog on your left. For conformation, start teaching your stand by positioning yourself facing your dogs right shoulder, hold the head up with your right hand and gently place your left hand on "knees" moving dog back, while giving command "stand". As soon as dog stands, open right hand, (which should have bait in it) and reward. Keep bait foward, don't accidently guide him back into a sit. When your dog cooperates by standing and eating without trying to sit again, move on to using just the verbal command while moving your right hand foward from nose straight out into a standing position, while giving command. Once your dog understands, you can then start positioning feet in appropriate place. For now just get your dog to stand on command. When gaiting your dog up to the judge, the reason your dog is sitting is you're not fast enough with your right hand and bait and the dog doesn't know command yet. Slowly jog this dog up to the trainer/judge and quickly give command "stand" while baiting dog to step foward verses remaining in heel position and sitting. It's simply a matter of repetion. I just had a funny thought. Were you the new student with the little Aussie in Rosemary Petters class Wed. night?? See a couple of crazy brunettes running around, working a couple of Dobies there? Lol.
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Old 06-11-2007, 07:55 PM
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Thanks everybody. Your advice helped me considerably.

Otch1, PM atcha!.
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:25 PM
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Very informative.
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:34 PM
tessa_s212
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Others already beat me to it. Great advice.

With enough repetition, teaching both obedience and show is actually quite simple. Dogs aren't dumb and they learn to distinguish by body language, smells, etc. For example, in obedience I always wear pants. In show I'm always in a skirt. In obedience I use plain old yummy dog treats. In show I always use extra extra yummy and smelly treats like food rolls, liver, hot dogs, ham, etc etc. In obedience I have a a very controlled walking manner, I stop abruptly, and I want the dog watching me constantly. In show I'm much more loose and relaxed, my arm position is completely different, I want the dog looking forward when gaiting, I take rounded corners and do not stop abruptly. All this information with enough training will be noticed by the dog and they will understand the difference, even if you must compete in both obedience and conformation all in the same day.
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Old 06-11-2007, 09:35 PM
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Sounds like sound advice Tessa. Except... the skirt part. The last time I shaved my legs I got a horrible rash!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tessa_s212 View Post
Others already beat me to it. Great advice.

With enough repetition, teaching both obedience and show is actually quite simple. Dogs aren't dumb and they learn to distinguish by body language, smells, etc. For example, in obedience I always wear pants. In show I'm always in a skirt. In obedience I use plain old yummy dog treats. In show I always use extra extra yummy and smelly treats like food rolls, liver, hot dogs, ham, etc etc. In obedience I have a a very controlled walking manner, I stop abruptly, and I want the dog watching me constantly. In show I'm much more loose and relaxed, my arm position is completely different, I want the dog looking forward when gaiting, I take rounded corners and do not stop abruptly. All this information with enough training will be noticed by the dog and they will understand the difference, even if you must compete in both obedience and conformation all in the same day.
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Old 06-11-2007, 09:41 PM
RedyreRottweilers
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I have always competed and trained in obedience and conformation at the same time.

The only trick is to spend as much time on stand as you do on sit. I teach dogs to pop up into a stand from a sit at an early age. If my bitch is sitting in front of me, and I smile at her, and only SLIGHTLY lean into her, she will pop into a stand.

It's just a matter of teaching stand as much as you teach sit.

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