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  #11  
Old 05-08-2007, 01:17 AM
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Same thing has happened in afghans. Friend has a pointed male, but after multiple shows in the past year can't get more points on him. He's lovely, but he just sits in the lower reaches of the height standard, and bigger is 'in' right now.

So much so, dogs over the freaking standard are the ones pointing... She put his show career on hold and is back to showing some of her younger ladies waiting to see if this will go back to in standard dogs winning.
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  #12  
Old 05-08-2007, 01:46 AM
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All the breeders I respect strive for moderation and performance, without losing breed type. Unfortunately, exaggeration appeals to the amateur.
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  #13  
Old 05-08-2007, 06:40 AM
IliamnasQuest IliamnasQuest is offline
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Originally Posted by Sunnierhawk0 View Post
In my breed, Rottweilers, I am expereicing thing problem as we speak. My bitch is 22.5 inches at the shoulder, and weighs 87ish pounds. Standard is 22-25, and yet many people come up to me and ask me "aww how old is the puppy".... She is perfectly in standard, but people are so use to seeing the big overdone bitches and males they dont realize that the standard says "MEDIUM to LARGE" dog... no where does it say extra large.
I always find it interesting when things go outside of the standard and yet are allowed to win. In chows, they're supposed to be a medium sized dogs and yet you see ones that are 70 pounds and up. The standard states "never so massive as to outweigh his ability to be active, alert and agile." And yet we'll see ponderous dogs that are so heavy in bone and skin that they can't move well and can't breathe well - and some dingbat judge will award them best of breed.

I have two show dogs here who are pointed in conformation. The older one has five points and is spayed and no longer shown. She is nicely square and compact and weighs just 38 pounds. The other is not quite as square but is beautifully built for power and endurance and weighs 52 pounds. All of my chows have open/moderate faces. And all of them breathe VERY well (although the 15 year old gal tends to snore when she's sleeping now .. *L*).

I find it sad that my agile, athletic, nicely built young bitch who has an exquisite temperament will get beat pretty regularly by the other bitches showing who are fatter, less athletic ability, heavier faces and not nearly as good of a temperament. You often see the dogs grouped as to how much heaviness is in the face .. heavy ones in front, moderate ones behind. While my girl will achieve all sorts of things - rally titles, obedience titles, tracking, agility, therapy dog - she is considered less of a chow because she's not heavy enough to please the judges. I will probably go back to Canada next year and work on a Canadian Championship (she has 2 points already) as her breeder is Canadian and wants that on her. Hopefully the Canadian judges are not as brainwashed as the American judges.

In the meantime we'll keep working on the performance titles!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
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  #14  
Old 05-08-2007, 10:22 AM
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In this day and age we (humans and especially in the USA) are all about having the Biggest, Flashiest etc..., we are incredibility competitive. This shows up in are dogs just like our cars, houses, jewelry etc...
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  #15  
Old 05-08-2007, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IliamnasQuest View Post
I always find it interesting when things go outside of the standard and yet are allowed to win.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
We had a discussion on this with a SV judge on why you'd find Larger dogs put up for champions when they were "oversized". His explanation that if everything else was equal, they would put up larger dogs at times to preserve the overall size in the breed.

I do NOT breed, but have heard many times that if you breed medium to medium, after a while you'll start to see smaller generations of offpsring. I do not know if this is true or not, but he stated that they needed to, on occassion to keep the "larger" dogs in our pedigrees to keep the breed as a whole within the standard. But he did state that too many people were breeding large dogs for the wrong reasons. and too many times people interpreted that to mean they could breed their 120 pound GSD.

Myself, I love a male GSD about 80 lbs or so, and a female about 60. That usually gives me that strong atheltic, tireless worker.
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  #16  
Old 05-08-2007, 10:58 AM
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I don't think moderation comes naturally to humans; we're extremists by nature and only civilization changes that, gives moderation and self-restraint a chance. I don't think it's a coincidence that most of the people who own and/or breed extreme dogs are also lacking in other civilized behaviors like good sportsmanship, social responsibility, basic manners, etc.
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  #17  
Old 05-08-2007, 07:49 PM
IliamnasQuest IliamnasQuest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatszmatter View Post
We had a discussion on this with a SV judge on why you'd find Larger dogs put up for champions when they were "oversized". His explanation that if everything else was equal, they would put up larger dogs at times to preserve the overall size in the breed.

I do NOT breed, but have heard many times that if you breed medium to medium, after a while you'll start to see smaller generations of offpsring. I do not know if this is true or not, but he stated that they needed to, on occassion to keep the "larger" dogs in our pedigrees to keep the breed as a whole within the standard. But he did state that too many people were breeding large dogs for the wrong reasons. and too many times people interpreted that to mean they could breed their 120 pound GSD.

Myself, I love a male GSD about 80 lbs or so, and a female about 60. That usually gives me that strong atheltic, tireless worker.

I'm not as familiar with the GSD standard as I am the chows - showing GSD's in conformation never really interested me (I like the German style dogs). I can see the reasoning there, but I'm not sure that it's completely logical. A good breeder may breed to a dog on the high end of the height standard in order to balance out lines that are becoming smaller. But to point a dog that is outside of the standard just seems hypocritical. What's the use of having a written standard if the judges can then arbitrarily decide when to "break the rules"?

My last two shepherds - both female - have been around 65-70 pounds and that's a nice size. My first one was 105# at prime and it was too big - he broke down younger than he should have. Trick is turning 11 in a few days and is still going strong.

In the chow conformation world, there is no actual weight restriction - they do have heights listed but still say that the overall dog is to be taken into consideration. That gives people the leeway to step outside of the suggested heights. The problem we see in chows is that people breed for such extreme heavy bone and heads that the dogs become overdone to the point of barely able to move and difficulties in breathing and seeing. To me, breeding to that extent is downright cruel.

Melanie and the gang
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  #18  
Old 05-08-2007, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MafiaPrincess View Post
Same thing has happened in afghans. Friend has a pointed male, but after multiple shows in the past year can't get more points on him. He's lovely, but he just sits in the lower reaches of the height standard, and bigger is 'in' right now.

So much so, dogs over the freaking standard are the ones pointing... She put his show career on hold and is back to showing some of her younger ladies waiting to see if this will go back to in standard dogs winning.
That's just not right.
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  #19  
Old 05-08-2007, 11:10 PM
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My breeder sees it in cockers. Standard calls for coat in moderation, often dogs with excessive coat get put up. Or dogs with extreme plush muzzles.. Really long necks, odd things.. Standard calls for a compact sporty dog. So shes trying her damnedest to keep her lines compact and sporty, shows them, they get seen, but they don't always do well when it's not what's 'in'.

I want to try showing my future boy.. but between hearing the cocker and afghan politics. Ugh.. Saddens me..
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  #20  
Old 05-08-2007, 11:15 PM
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We are supposed to have a 'moderate neck'. But there are some dogs that I like to refer to as giraffe dogs... It's horrible, but that's what they look like to me.
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