pitties and dog agression

[daaqa]

great site, elegy!

ok, so i can't get this out of my head and i want to clarify a bit [ugh, i know... sorry for being annoying!]. i just really want to be a part of fighting this whole bsl crap, and would love to get a pittie just to "stick it to the man" as it were. i had a rott when rotties were the evil dogs, so i have a clue what it's like. and pits are just too adorable!

specifically define "alone" and "unattended" when it comes to your multi-dog households...

does this mean you don't leave the house with them out together [which makes sense with any dog]? does this mean you don't leave the room, any room, even for a moment, with them out together? or outside in the backyard and you in the house? how far do you guys go with this? do you crate them when you run to the bathroom, or take them with you? how "attended" is enough?

[apbtmomof4]

As the mom to 4 pitties (2 adult males and 2, 13 week pups, one male and one female) I am well aware that if I am not around the sweet boys I know and love could disagree about something and resolve it in a fight so I don't give them that option. Bo is older, calmer and better trained so he is allowed free roam of the house at all times. Tyson is younger, more hyper, and as a resent rescue, still needs a lot of house training and better manners. When I or my husband is not available to supervise the 2 together, Tyson gets crated. I know that Ty can be annoying to Bo and I don't want Bo to correct his behavior with a good bite. Bo outweighs Ty by almost 20lbs and Ty is usually completely submissive to Bo but there are times when he wants to play so badly that he doesn't take no for an answer and can pick at Bo until he snaps. When we are there, Bo snaps once and then responds to our disagreement in his actions and returns to the couch. He might take it further if we weren't there or he might not and I am not going to take that chance. I am sure that it will get more challenging when the pups are older but I love the breed and the dogs so much that I am willing to deal with what I have to and train and socialize to the point that DA won't be an issue with them while in my control and that they will never have the chance to be with each other out of my control. Being a responsible owner of any breed means being realistic to the fact that our beloved pets are still animals before anything else and as animals they will handle their disputes the way animals do.

ETA: having 4 pitties in my house means never going to the bathroom alone I always have at least 2 and usually all 4 following me wherever I go even if they were all dead asleep when I moved and it is usually Bo that starts the chain reaction of following. Ty gets crated when I shower or am otherwise out of hearing range. I trust Bo with the pups for those short moments but they are crated too when I leave the house.

[Boemy]

Originally Posted by daaqa

great site, elegy!

ok, so i can't get this out of my head and i want to clarify a bit [ugh, i know... sorry for being annoying!]. i just really want to be a part of fighting this whole bsl crap, and would love to get a pittie just to "stick it to the man" as it were.

Please don't be offended, but this is a bad reason to choose a breed. Every breed is for someone. No breed is for everyone. You should try to match up with a breed that is best for YOU, not "stick it to the man."

I was reading an article about "tame" wolves on WolfPark.org, talking about the differences between dogs and wolves and this part really struck me:

It is not fair to the animal to get it, have problems with it, then kill it for doing what wolves can do.

IMO . . . it's not fair to get a pit bull and expect it to act differently than pit bulls were bred to act.

[Bahamutt99]

Originally Posted by daaqa

specifically define "alone" and "unattended" when it comes to your multi-dog households...?

I can kinda answer this one. I have my APBT, and my dad just moved in with his two dogs. All 3 can run together, but with limitations. Basically, yes, no dogs are left loose in house while we are away. They can go out in the yard together, but I watch out the window. I think a reasonable rule of thumb would be if you're not in earshot of any brewing problems, that's the same as unattended. And then you have to use common sense with triggers such as food bowls and toys.

Its worth noting that the APBTs I've had respond differently to other dogs than other APBTs. My girl is more wary and more likely to respond with aggression to other dogs of her breed, but she's fascinated with little floofy dogs. I honestly believe they can tell the difference. And then there are some APBTs that will only go after bigger dogs, because they don't consider dogs smaller than them to be a challenge. Every one is different.

[Doberluv]

Quote:

To those who will never own a Pit or an Amstaff...you will never no the most pure love a K9 nine has to offer, that is my most humble opinion and yes I am very bias. I have been around a of dogs and I have never seen a more devoted and emotionally tuned in breed.

Its a Bully thing....you just wouldn't understand

also I have been around a lot of other breeds. One breed I was very close to...I owned three; They love you and would die for you but they don't have this super craving to be with humans... at least not in my experience. The human bond of a Pit is hard to explain and even harder to beat.

I have. I too have owned many breeds and the most devoted I have met thus far is the Doberman. I have many friends with bully breeds, including APBT's and these dogs are nice, but, not as loyal as the Dobe's I've owned and known. I think everyone who has been owned by a dog can be a little bias, but, to out and out tell people that this is the way it is is not fair. Actually some of the APBT's and other bully breeds I have known are just as happy to leave their owner as they are to stay. I also found it fascinating years ago (many years ago) before the AKC breed book was redone it mentioned that APBT's and other bully breeds are the easiest breeds to rehome as they don't get as attached to their owners as other breeds. They love their owners yes, but, unlike other breeds that have a hard time adjusting to a new owners bully breeds don't. If you ever get a chance to get your hands on the old AKC book before it was revised it was quite fascinating. It also told of the aggression problems of each breed and why they were allowed to demonstrate aggressive behavior in the ring, and the breeds that had to wear muzzles in the ring...where now the dog would be excused.

As for dog aggression and APBT's, with the motor patterns they possess, and the behavioral conformation of a well bred APBT I would not trust them with other dogs. Of course, there are many mixed APBT's or ones that have been bred not holding the behavioral conformation true that are fine with other dogs. It all depends on the breeding and imprinting at the right time frame. To say all APBT's are dog aggressive is like my saying all Border Collies are wonderful sheep herders, I've met some border collies that imprinted on sheep to young or just didn't develop the proper behavioral conformation to be a good herd dog. Same goes with APBT's, not all are going to have the technique or enhanced behaviors to be true to what they had been bred for.

I totally agree Poppy. And it's true...it depends on what people value in what brand of companionship or loyalty a dog has. I've owned lots of breeds too over my half century + of life and I have yet to have come across any more fiercely loyal than my Doberman. They were bred to protect and stay by their owner. That's all they bred for. I've never seen a dog more "into" their owner than a Dobe. The quickness to obedience is quite phenomenal. The affection they show to the owner's family and close friends is intense. They are suspicious, skeptical (prove you're OK first and that my Mom thinks you're OK... then I'll accept you as friend) at first of strangers and that's how they're suppose to be, but not indiscriminately aggressive.

I think Staffies and the like are sweet dogs and probably as loyal as you describe. I've met a few and think I even have one which may have some of that in her. It isn't a breed or type I'd choose but I do admire them, all except for the dog aggression thing. I have a little bit of that with my Doberman or at least dog reactiveness and it's not fun. But he's wonderful with his own doggie brother and sisters and some other dogs too. But as far as being more loyal or more companionable than other breeds, that's up to interpretation. I find my Chihuahuas to be extremely loyal too, very companionable. That's their only job that they were ever meant to do....be companions and they're good at it. LOL.

[daaqa]

Originally Posted by Boemy

Please don't be offended, but this is a bad reason to choose a breed. Every breed is for someone. No breed is for everyone. You should try to match up with a breed that is best for YOU, not "stick it to the man."

umm, totally not offended, but i wanted to clarify.

my statement was partially induced by being angry at the current battle in canada [ontario] over bsl. i've gotten the comments and stares and glares for owning a "man-killer" breed before, and it's reminding me of that.

i would never get a breed i hadn't researched. ever. especially not one surrounded with controversy! that is the very reason i am asking these specific questions. i have owned/experienced dogs of many, many breeds and temperments, and am very well aware of the need to match dog with owner.

unless my circumstances change in the next little while, we will not be getting a second dog in the next two years. and i plan to spend that two years getting to know the dog i have and researching a dog that would fit into our household. that is the nature of my questions. after this conversation ends, i will likely be asking many questions about other breeds we have been considering. i have read extensively on breed club and info sites, but really find that there is so much to learn from owners directly.

IMO . . . it's not fair to get a pit bull and expect it to act differently than pit bulls were bred to act.

i wouldn't expect that! it's the very reason we will likely never own a border collie or jack russell! i am merely asking to what degree do individual owners find that they need to be cautious about this. how do they provide for these instincts.

another motive for asking these questions, is that in my desire to fight the BSL, i want to educate myself on pitbulls so that i can educate others.