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Old 03-12-2007, 09:14 AM
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Okay so like i said on Friday i went to Red Hills but the night before i went to a rodeo that some of my students were riding in. I was talking to another BR that I grew up with and has seen me race and train for years. Well we were talking and i told her about Ranger and how i planned to get a Mustang in a year or two from the BLM. She was trying to explain how getting one from a breeder might be a better idea and better for starting a breeding program but I dont see the issue in breeding a BLM horse. They were wild captured or bred then adopted out. I know the sire i would use and hes got a great start to his career and will continue to amaze in the years to follow. Now im starting to hear from others that breeding a BLM horse is unethical. What do you think? I jsut dont see it that way.
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Old 03-12-2007, 11:17 AM
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So if I understand correctly you want to get a BLM Mustang Filly and then breed her eventually---to what kind of stud? Your goal is to have barrel racing horse right?
I guess like with anything else --do your research and also carefully evaluate and have others evaluate what they think about the possible breeding when the time comes. Forgive me, I know very little about mustangs-I've seen a few here and there and they seemed like ok trail horses. I haven't known any mustang performance horses. Are they know for there speed and turning ability and trainablity?
I would imagine someone who breeds mustangs in a controlled setting such as Kieger (sp?) mustangs would probably select for certain traits and overtime you probably get a more conformationally "correct" animal. The breeding quality of a BLM rescue would really depend on the individual and what you hope to do with the offspring--just like with dogs--its a little more chancy to breed when you don't know what is behind the dog (or the horse).
Like I said, I don't know the first thing about mustang performance abilities in general---most of the barrel racers in my area are Quarter horses and paints--QH have been bred forever to be sprinters and tend to excel in that sport from what I've seen. Good luck with your horse search and remember to post lots of pics when you get one!
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Old 03-12-2007, 12:15 PM
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Mustang stud. i want to breed br mustangs. I know a few people who use them and quite a few who want to transition to them. They are actually very good barrel horses IF you know waht you are doing. they are not for the first time horse owner OBVIOUSLY LOL.
Of course i would do the research and all that but they are saying because you cant track their lineage that they are not a breed you can ethically breed. Which i dont particularly believe. Ranger wasnt registered and neither is Trace (the stud). I dotn think a horse has to be registerable to be bred but then again that comes from my ranching lifestyle where there wasnt "controlled" breeding.
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Old 03-12-2007, 12:27 PM
casablanca1 casablanca1 is offline
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I have two questions about it. I'm not criticizing your plan, just curious.

1) Unless they're from isolated regions where outside animals couldn't get in, aren't mustangs pretty much a mix of whatever horses got loose from the first days of European exploration to today? I realize horse breeding is more performance-oriented than dog breeding, and not as hungup on purebreds, but

2) Is it possible to get consistent traits from mustangs once they're taken from the wild? I mean, I've read that they're studier than domesticated horses, better hooves, get along better with other horses, etc. - ie, all advantages of being wild with natural culling, etc. - but once they're in captivity, don't those advantages become lost in the next generation?

Again, just curious. I've never really thought about people breeding mustangs to keep them alive as a breed in domestication. I knew about the roundups and auctions, but never really thought beyond that.
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Old 03-12-2007, 12:34 PM
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I know a few people who do and have had great success in it. They dont breed alot and only with eachother.

Mustangs are in essence a mix of all types of horses BUT they are also a "breed". How i want to breed alot would be very close to their "wild" ancestors. I plan to adopt most of my breeding stock from the BLM and only breed the offspring if they have the correct traits for my stock. If you do not breed in domesticated breeds they tend to keep their wild characteristics for example the sturdier hooves and herd mentality. But it also comes from teh way you raise them. Mine will spend 50***37; of the year"wild" and the other 50% in captivity so to speak. Meaning when they are in the "wild" they will not be coming into the barn or any of that they will live in the pastures as horses. Then the other percentage they will live in the barn and go to rodeos, train, normal domesticated things.
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Old 03-12-2007, 12:37 PM
casablanca1 casablanca1 is offline
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Interesting. It would have to be a very specialized management program, I guess. Good luck!
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Old 03-12-2007, 12:38 PM
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IT is and its going to be alot of work. But its my dream so you do it and all the work associated. also did i mention im insane LOL.
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Old 03-12-2007, 02:10 PM
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Well, I'm involved with warmbloods, which are not "purebred" in any sense of the word. Most warmbloods aren't techinically breeds at all. So I have no issues with the idea of breeding crossbreds correctly.

I also don't know a ton about mustangs or barrel racing, so take it all with a grain of salt. I have, however, spent quite a bit of time around a very successful performance breeding farm.

Here's the issues I see with the plan:

How old of a mustang would you be looking to adopt? I was under the impression that it is usually young (foals or maybe yearlings) mustangs that are adopted out. It is impossible to tell at that age if a horse is going to be breeding quality, yet you seem very set on having this horse as the foundation sire for your "herd". Are you willing to wait and honestly evaluate the horse when it is five or so? Are you okay with the idea that this horse may make a better gelding?

The same thing will apply to the mares you intend to adopt. There is a pretty small percentage of horses out there who are truly worthy of being bred for performance. Are you willing to accept that you may have to adopt these mares, let them grow up, and then sell 50% or more of them as pleasure horses? Will each of them be trained and evaluated as barrel horses? Even if you can judge their conformation and how it relates to performance, how will you know if they have the right temperment for sport if you don't do some training with them?

Quote:
If you do not breed in domesticated breeds they tend to keep their wild characteristics for example the sturdier hooves and herd mentality.
Do you intend to sell the offspring of your horses? What is the market for them like? I can't imagine feral horses would stay "domesticated" for long if they lived wild in a herd for half the year. I can't believe how "feral" some of the babies at our farm can get if they live outside for a week without regular handling! Again, a lot of your offspring won't be super performance stock. No matter how careful you are, some are just going to be okay pleasure/backyard type horses. The people who are out to buy that type of horse are not going to be very successful with a mostly feral horse. As you've stated, these are not good horses for first time owners. But the people who can manage this type of horse aren't going to want one that isn't a great sport prospect.

Is it ethical to breed these horses? In my personal opinion...no. The BLM is constantly dealing with the fact that there are too many of their mustangs and not enough land for them. You are going to be breeding BLM to BLM, and producing yet another BLM who needs a home. People can go out and adopt their own from the wild herd. It's not as if you are taking a BLM stallion and outcrossing it to a different type of horse; you are just creating more of what there is already a surplus of. Perhaps if both the mare and stallion had very successful performance careers it would be different.

Are you still thinking about going away to college? I know that was something you had posted about with Ranger a while ago. Finding a place to board a "one-person" stallion such as Ranger would have been challenging. Finding a place to board an adopted mustang stallion who is used to living wild half the year will be much harder. Perhaps this is all better left until after college?

I know from previous posts that we don't agree on a lot of things about horse breeding, and that's okay. But please do think through these points. You may have a perfectly reasonable answer for each of them - like I said, the breed and sport aren't my specialties ! It sounds like there are others in your sport that see some holes in your plans as well. Perhaps you could have some honest discussions about their concerns? These "devil's advocates" may be able to help you with your planning by pointing out shortcomings you will need to be aware of.

Whatever you decide to do, good luck!
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Old 03-12-2007, 02:57 PM
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Uh, wow, BostonBanker saved me a lot of typing. Now I can just say a couple of words:
"I" and "agree" and "with" and "BostonBanker".
Yay! LOL
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Old 03-12-2007, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBanker View Post
How old of a mustang would you be looking to adopt? I was under the impression that it is usually young (foals or maybe yearlings) mustangs that are adopted out. It is impossible to tell at that age if a horse is going to be breeding quality, yet you seem very set on having this horse as the foundation sire for your "herd". Are you willing to wait and honestly evaluate the horse when it is five or so? Are you okay with the idea that this horse may make a better gelding?
The stallion i will be using is 3, will be 4 in a few months. He has already started to compete for fun and will start to compete in actual events and seriously in about 6 months to a year. He has already shown promice and has the potential to be great with work. And i know that not all horses are going to work in breeding
The same thing will apply to the mares you intend to adopt. There is a pretty small percentage of horses out there who are truly worthy of being bred for performance. Are you willing to accept that you may have to adopt these mares, let them grow up, and then sell 50% or more of them as pleasure horses? Will each of them be trained and evaluated as barrel horses? Even if you can judge their conformation and how it relates to performance, how will you know if they have the right temperment for sport if you don't do some training with them?
I understand the percentages this is not the first time ive done breedings. Most of my life i have been around br horse breeding and done a few of my own already. Ranger was the result of one of them. I know what i am looking for and BR would be my main but not only focus. I also would like to get into endurance riding and competitive trail. and of course i relize they wont be all preformance horses. If they were destined to be pleasure horses they will stay on my farm that way or go to people i know that can handle them.

Do you intend to sell the offspring of your horses? What is the market for them like? I can't imagine feral horses would stay "domesticated" for long if they lived wild in a herd for half the year. I can't believe how "feral" some of the babies at our farm can get if they live outside for a week without regular handling! Again, a lot of your offspring won't be super performance stock. No matter how careful you are, some are just going to be okay pleasure/backyard type horses. The people who are out to buy that type of horse are not going to be very successful with a mostly feral horse. As you've stated, these are not good horses for first time owners. But the people who can manage this type of horse aren't going to want one that isn't a great sport prospect.Some will be sold but im not jsut gonna sell them to anybody. And im not gonna ad. them or any of that it will only be through word of mouth and my friends and others in my community.

Is it ethical to breed these horses? In my personal opinion...no. The BLM is constantly dealing with the fact that there are too many of their mustangs and not enough land for them. You are going to be breeding BLM to BLM, and producing yet another BLM who needs a home. People can go out and adopt their own from the wild herd. It's not as if you are taking a BLM stallion and outcrossing it to a different type of horse; you are just creating more of what there is already a surplus of. Perhaps if both the mare and stallion had very successful performance careers it would be different.
they would only be bred after they proved themselves preformance wise.

Are you still thinking about going away to college? I know that was something you had posted about with Ranger a while ago. Finding a place to board a "one-person" stallion such as Ranger would have been challenging. Finding a place to board an adopted mustang stallion who is used to living wild half the year will be much harder. Perhaps this is all better left until after college?
college is out. and even then i will only have the filly. and know a place near the college i plan to attend that would take her.
It sounds like there are others in your sport that see some holes in your plans as well. Perhaps you could have some honest discussions about their concerns? These "devil's advocates" may be able to help you with your planning by pointing out shortcomings you will need to be aware of.
its not really the people in my sport the people i was talking to that bother me cuz the girl i was talking to also told me i couldnt br with a anglo arab and look how he did. Shes jsut shes hard to explain. Shes also the one who told me my pit bulls are purebred because they arent AKC I did talk to my mentor about it and she feels the same as me but she also knows me and how i work and would do my breeding. I would not be mainly breeding, that would be more i geuss you would call it a hobby. Maybe one or two breedings a year. Im not starting a herd or anything LOL. i used that example above to explain it. Im not insane enough to have that many mustangs.
my answers in red.
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