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  #41  
Old 03-06-2007, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnierhawk0 View Post
RedRye,

I hope your breeding with Penny goes great. Be sure to keep us updated with pictures! Who are you breeding her too?

And ok now I must interject...

People who are not in the Rottie breed need to take a BIG 2 steps back. If you did research OFA you WOULD notice that the breed is almost half effected with DJD. Its a problem the breed is working on to fix, but its still a issue. Sure go ahead and look up my girl's OFA info ( still waiting to get her results) you will see her Dam and her sire both have *1* elbow that has DJD1. You can usually get a DJD1 on a Rottweiler from just general wear and tear of the body.... not saying its not genetic, but a DJD2 would worry me MUCH more than a DJD1. Would I breed a DJD1 in a elbow if my girl came back with one? I wouldn't hesisitate.

Before you all jump on red you need to take a step back and realize *most* of you are not in the breed, and it would be like saying Oh pug people shouldnt breed becaue they dont OFA at all! Same with bulldog people! Every breed has a issue that they must work with, and elbows are one for Rotties.

Stop attacking. She is going to do whats best for her dog, no matter what people on a internet board say. Good Luck Red.
I agree as well. Great post
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  #42  
Old 03-06-2007, 09:47 PM
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First off, most all purebred dogs have very little diversity in their ancestory. Breeding relatives, no matter how distant creates defects. It's not about passing diseases on. It's about genetic drift. So, no matter how careful a breeder is to breed perfectly healthy dogs, a certain number of these mutations will occur. Secondly, there are no perfect dogs.

Take Dobermans, for example just because I'm familiar with that breed. They have so many potential health issues, it isn't even funny. Dilated cardiomyopathy and cancer is in ALL the lines. Not every dog will have it, but it's in the genes. Should no more Dobermans be breed ever again? They also have a very high incidence of Von Willebrans Disease, a bleeding disorder. Dobermans have a higher incidence of this than any other breed. However, in Dobermans, it happens to be usually the less severe. (there are 3 classification of severity) I think it's something like 30***37; are affected. Affected dogs are not all clinical bleeders. So, it's not normally (but it can be) as severe in Dobermans. There are other diseases too...hypothyroidism, liver malfunction, occassional dysplasia (although that is not a big problem in Dobes). There is always temperament to consider.

Now, take Lyric's sire's breeder who actually bred his mother but another breeder owned her. Lyric's grandsire was the #1 Dobe in the country a few times. His breeder got breeder of the year award not too long ago. She breeds wonderful dogs. Lyric's mother was affected with Von Willebrands. His sire was a carrier....on the face of it, that is not a good idea because you can get 50/50 carriers and affected. Lyric's mother had a C-section...no bleeding problems at all.

Ok....so should Lyric's breeder not have bred these dogs on account of the Von Willebrands? The titles these dogs had, the conformation was close to perfect, not an easy feat. The longevity in the lines was relatively good...not too much cancer or cardio...a little, but not much back there. The temperaments were good. Let me tell you. It is impossible to get dogs who have it all....every single thing perfect. That doesn't exist. Reputable breeders, such as Lyric's breeder who has been doing this for 40 some years do the best they can. They make decisions which will improve the breed. To get dogs who do not have one single problem is impossible. There could be a dog who is clear of Von Willebrands, but has a lot more cardio or cancer in the recent ancestors or one who has a crappy temperament but has little cardio in the back ground. YOU CAN'T HAVE IT ALL. I don't care what anyone says. So, Lyric's breeder had a bitch that had just about everything going for her. The sire had everything going for him. EXCEPT that darn Von Willebrands. Now, after a few generations, it may be probable to breed a carrier with a clear who also has many good attributes. But trading Von Willebrands for cardio isn't a good trade.

If all these Dobermans who are bred weren't bred because of some health issue, there wouldn't be any Dobermans at all.

The goal is to improve the breed and strive to erradicate these things, even if it may take a few generations. However, like I said, even with the most careful, mutations or defects will occurr every now and then, regardless, because of how genetics work. Actually, the best bet would be to infiltrate another breed every once in a while to diversify the gene pool a little more.

So, my take....Red is doing nothing abnormal at all. This is a trade off. One hip or elbow (can't remember which) and everything else is probably excellent. You can't have it all. Genetics don't work like that.
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  #43  
Old 03-06-2007, 10:01 PM
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Great post Dober
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  #44  
Old 03-06-2007, 10:22 PM
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You guys kick so much butt. Thanks for saying what I wanted to!
  #45  
Old 03-06-2007, 11:05 PM
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The following comments come from this site, OFA:

http://www.offa.org/edanswers.html


"Examination of the OFA database reveals the following mating probability results for 13,151 breeding pairs of dogs with known elbow status:

Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED

Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED

Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED

In this very large breeding study (primarily Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, Rottweilers, and German Shepherd Dogs), the rate of ED more than doubled when one parent was affected, and more than tripled when both parents were affected. In any breed where the overall percentage of affected dogs is already lower than the percentage that can be expected when a dog affected with ED is bred to a normal dog (26.1% - 31.3%), one would find few circumstances in which progress can be made by breeding a dog affected with ED."

So, 26% versus 12%. Pretty big difference, IMO.




And another quote from a well respected member of Rottweiler.net

"I believe that people do not realize how very important the elbows truly are. In many respects they are more important than the hips as they carry the majority of the dog's weight, and must absorb all the landing pressure even when just moving, and especially when any jumping is involved. A dog can shift weight forward to compensate for a lesser rear end, but they cannot shift weight to the back. The Rottweiler is a heavy-bodied dog and those elbows must be able to do a lot of work."



And red, don't worry. You won't receive any PM's from me.
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  #46  
Old 03-06-2007, 11:24 PM
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J's, VERY interesting post. I looked on OFA for statistics like that and couldn't find anything. Figures, I must've just glossed over it.

Thanks for the info.
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  #47  
Old 03-06-2007, 11:47 PM
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I think that if 40% of Rotties are affected by this problem, the dog shouldn't be bred, for the following reasons.

1. If it's that common, it greatly increases the odds that even a stud with excellent or normal elbows will be a carrier, thus resulting in affected pups.

2. This isn't a rare breed, it's a rottweiller. There are tons of them. And 60% are without this problem? That's a huge number of dogs.

Just my two cents . . . I'm not trying to attack anyone or rag on the dog.
  #48  
Old 03-06-2007, 11:51 PM
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What member? How is an un named source, from THAT bulletin board, credible when it is un named and unverified?

THIS:
In any breed where the overall percentage of affected dogs is already lower than the percentage that can be expected when a dog affected with ED is bred to a normal dog (26.1***37; - 31.3%),

does not apply at this point in time to the Rottweiler breed, since the percentage of dysplastic dogs is over 40%.

So I lied about the final comment. I had to correct this post. IF the un named source wants to come here and ream me about my decision to breed this bitch, let them step forward.

And now I'm PLENTY done.
  #49  
Old 03-06-2007, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedyreRottweilers View Post
What member? How is an un named source, from THAT bulletin board, credible when it is un named and unverified?

THIS:
In any breed where the overall percentage of affected dogs is already lower than the percentage that can be expected when a dog affected with ED is bred to a normal dog (26.1% - 31.3%),

does not apply at this point in time to the Rottweiler breed, since the percentage of dysplastic dogs is over 40%.

So I lied about the final comment. I had to correct this post. IF the un named source wants to come here and ream me about my decision to breed this bitch, let them step forward.

And now I'm PLENTY done.
It doesn't have to be verified, it's an opinion that many share. Sounds like an ethical person to me. Are you trying to say that comment wouldn't be considered ethical?

And the reason for the higher percentage now is because of breeders breeding to dogs with DJD.
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  #50  
Old 03-07-2007, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
And 60***37; are without this problem? That's a huge number of dogs.
Ok...so take the 60% that are without this problem. Out of those, find dogs who also have excellent temperments, no cancer, cardio, VW, (examples, since I don't know what they're prone to) excellent conformation otherwise, whatever other diseases they are prone to. Find one who doesn't have one other problem. Which is better...breeding the dog who has a lot of cancer in his lines or one with a slightly questionable elbow? Or one who doesn't have a lot of cancer, but has a strong history of some other disease or the elbow? I bet there are no breeding of any Rottweilers or any other breed that do not have some kind of inheritable problem.

Ok...lets cut out all the dogs with cancer in their lines and cut out all the dogs with elbow discrepencies. Now, how many dogs are there to breed from? Oh...wait a minute, what about the dogs with lousy temperaments? We better remove those from the gene pool. Now how many dogs are there to breed from. And the other diseases. Remove those dogs too. Now how many dogs are there to breed from? The pool has shrunken to a very, very small grouping. So, now the founder effect is really going to take affect. Defects from such a small gene pool are going to crop up more than ever. Inbreeding causes defects, period. When the diversity is decreased, mutations are increased.

There's the ideal world and there's reality. Purebred dogs are in trouble no matter what we do unless we mix in other breeds or mixed breeds occassionally. It's about biology.
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