Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > The Breeding Ground


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 03-06-2007, 02:21 PM
RD's Avatar
RD RD is offline
Are you dead yet?
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 15,401
Default

So, how does grade 1 DJD affect the dog if not with lameness? If the dog has no problems with the joint, then what makes it such a huge problem? Granted, I don't know the heritability of the disease so I'm just throwing out random thoughts here.

Of course, J's, you want to avoid health problems. If I had a Border Collie with DJD I wouldn't breed her either, because the physical requirements of this breed's work is extremely strenuous and requires a very sound dog. But, I also will compromise or disregard the breed's appearance standard because my priority is a good worker, and I won't cast out a dog because of cow hocks or a short upper arm if the dog does the job well. A lot of people would look down on me for that. You can't please everyone.

But I guess what I'm saying is that it's up to the breeder to judge the merits and flaws of their dog, and choose to breed or spay accordingly. You've never seen Redyre's bitch, the only thing you know of her is the health records, pedigree and photos you've seen. Awfully presumptuous to say whether or not a dog you've never met is worthy of breeding.

An outsider's perspective: to eliminate all potential breeding animals because of DJD would be extremely detrimental to the Rottweiler breed. According to the OFA site, nearly 40% of Rottweilers have DJD. Do you want to toss out half the gene pool? How is that helping the breed? You do realize that a high coefficient of inbreeding (which it will eventually come to with people breeding only show dogs, only dogs free of all health problems and only dogs that are titled) will cause mutations and bring more problems to the breed, even if you only breed dogs that are squeaky clean as far as health goes. This has happened in my breed too . . . Not in the working lines, but the show lines where there are a few dogs in every dog's pedigree, hundreds of times over. The gene pool is frighteningly narrow and a lot of breeders have predicted that the show Border Collie will only continue to go downhill as far as health goes. Right now there is an issue with CL in the Australian show lines, which dominate the American ring. And these breeders didn't want working BCs in their lines because they're unhealthy mongrels! lol.

Anyway, I don't want to fight and I hope you don't take offense, J's. I like talking about breeding and I find this interesting.
__________________
  #22  
Old 03-06-2007, 03:00 PM
Bahamutt99's Avatar
Bahamutt99 Bahamutt99 is offline
Dafuq?
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: High Ridge, MO
Posts: 2,365
Default

I have what I hope is a pertinent question. How common is DJD in Rottweilers? Is it difficult to find a dog that is completely clear of genetic defects? I understand that breeders now are probably having to work against the massive fad overbreeding that went on when the popularity spiked not that long ago, so some concessions probably need to be made. Also, how hard is it to find multi-BIS, multi-HIT, etc. Rottweilers? Is it harder to find an accomplished dog or a fully healthy dog?

Basically, why I'm asking is to ascertain how high-value this dog would be against what's available in the breed. Its easy enough for me to sit back and say that with my breed, I wouldn't breed to a DJD dog. But I also weigh that against how many APBTs are out there actually being worked/shown in more than weight pull and conformation. I would prefer not breeding a dog with a genetic defect, but again, how common is it? Is it better or worse than the average for the breed?
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lindsay
& the Gravity Dogs


Now entering the land of hypnotic signatures...
  #23  
Old 03-06-2007, 03:31 PM
Angel Chicken
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I'm sorry, but I have to back Red on this.

She loves her breed, and has been doing this for many, many years. I admire her for the work she does with them, and the training advice she has given many.

I'll admit, I know nothing about breeding. Nothing at all. I do know, however, that Red is nothing but the best in this biz, and I'd buy a pup from her ANY day!

This sounds to me like a personal attack that has come out of nowhere.

Think about it. Not all dogs are perfect, ya know?? I think it is HER decision to breed the dog, not yours or anyone else's.
  #24  
Old 03-06-2007, 03:36 PM
MelissaCato's Avatar
MelissaCato MelissaCato is offline
ĜȫƝ ₩īĿ
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Under a Rock in the USA!
Posts: 1,461
Default Hummmm

Ya, it was a set up !
__________________
"Never miss a Good Chance to Wake Up"
  #25  
Old 03-06-2007, 03:59 PM
RedyreRottweilers
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamutt99 View Post
Basically, why I'm asking is to ascertain how high-value this dog would be against what's available in the breed.
How many dogs in ANY breed finish multiple Championship titles, (UKC at 7 months of age in 4 shows with 3 Group placements) and win Best In Show (at 13 and 17 mos of age) and High In Trial (for the first 2 legs of her UKC CD, back to back) TWICE?

How many Rottweilers finish their AKC Championship titles exclusively owner handled by 25 months of age?

This bitch is pretty, smart, of correct temperament, dead sound, likes to work, and a hot shot guard if necessary. She has drive to work, is an excellent retriever, has strong herding instinct, and is rock solid in any social situation. How many dogs can you name off the top of your head in any breed that have it all?

That one elbow graded DJD1 by the OFA will in no way slow me down in breeding this bitch. IMO she has quite a bit to offer this breed.

I guess I will say it one more time.

I have no issue with breeding this bitch, who belongs to me.

Her breeder has no issue with her being bred.

The stud dog owners I have spoken to with regard to breeding her to their dogs (yes, I already have more than one breeding planned), have no issue with breeding her to their dogs.

The people who are waiting to purchase puppies from her have no issue with her being bred.

The ARC and their Code of Ethics, to which I ascribe, has no issue with her being bred.

Now, with all THAT being said:

Who else has ANY BUSINESS being concerned with whether I breed this bitch or NOT?

And finally, as usual, you miss the entire point, Melissa. This thread is continued from another one. I didn't start this business. But I'd like to think it is now FINISHED.
  #26  
Old 03-06-2007, 04:19 PM
Bahamutt99's Avatar
Bahamutt99 Bahamutt99 is offline
Dafuq?
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: High Ridge, MO
Posts: 2,365
Default

'Kay. Thanks for turning the questions back at me instead of just answering what I had asked. I guess I don't really care. Its not my breed.
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lindsay
& the Gravity Dogs


Now entering the land of hypnotic signatures...
  #27  
Old 03-06-2007, 04:29 PM
J's crew J's crew is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,228
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RD View Post
So, how does grade 1 DJD affect the dog if not with lameness? If the dog has no problems with the joint, then what makes it such a huge problem? Granted, I don't know the heritability of the disease so I'm just throwing out random thoughts here.

Of course, J's, you want to avoid health problems. If I had a Border Collie with DJD I wouldn't breed her either, because the physical requirements of this breed's work is extremely strenuous and requires a very sound dog. But, I also will compromise or disregard the breed's appearance standard because my priority is a good worker, and I won't cast out a dog because of cow hocks or a short upper arm if the dog does the job well. A lot of people would look down on me for that. You can't please everyone.

But I guess what I'm saying is that it's up to the breeder to judge the merits and flaws of their dog, and choose to breed or spay accordingly. You've never seen Redyre's bitch, the only thing you know of her is the health records, pedigree and photos you've seen. Awfully presumptuous to say whether or not a dog you've never met is worthy of breeding.

An outsider's perspective: to eliminate all potential breeding animals because of DJD would be extremely detrimental to the Rottweiler breed. According to the OFA site, nearly 40% of Rottweilers have DJD. Do you want to toss out half the gene pool? How is that helping the breed? You do realize that a high coefficient of inbreeding (which it will eventually come to with people breeding only show dogs, only dogs free of all health problems and only dogs that are titled) will cause mutations and bring more problems to the breed, even if you only breed dogs that are squeaky clean as far as health goes. This has happened in my breed too . . . Not in the working lines, but the show lines where there are a few dogs in every dog's pedigree, hundreds of times over. The gene pool is frighteningly narrow and a lot of breeders have predicted that the show Border Collie will only continue to go downhill as far as health goes. Right now there is an issue with CL in the Australian show lines, which dominate the American ring. And these breeders didn't want working BCs in their lines because they're unhealthy mongrels! lol.

Anyway, I don't want to fight and I hope you don't take offense, J's. I like talking about breeding and I find this interesting.
No offense taken at all RD. And this was never intended to be a personal attack.

Rottweilers are working dogs also as are BC's. They need excellent joints in order to do the many activities alot of Rottie owners are involved in.

My question is this, would anyone buy a pup with HD in the dam and the last couple of generations? Why are elbows different?

And, my opinion is from looking at her pedigree. I have even posted on her threads commenting on how nice looking Penny is, from what I have seen she has type, and temperament. But so do alot of Rottweilers, without DJD.
__________________

Thanks Steveinski!
  #28  
Old 03-06-2007, 04:30 PM
RedyreRottweilers
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

It's not directed at you, Bahama, but what this dog has accomplished is an open book.

YES I consider her in the upper 20% of her breed. YES it is HARD to find a dog that can accomplish working and breed titles without professional help who has all health clearances.

NO I am not willing to toss her out for one DJD elbow and start over with a new puppy that will also be an unknown until health testing is finished at 2 years of age who will also have a GREATER than 40% chance of having some degree of ED whether from normal parents or not.

I have enough guts and concern for my breed that I released her abnormal elbow results from OFA for the world to see. Go check out how many Rottweiler breedings are made with NO elbow number. It's a LOT. Anyone considering any puppy from a breeding I make will have no trouble finding the health screening, good bad or indifferent.

I have had it up to my eyeballs with people sniping at me from their armchairs about MY personal decision to breed MY personal bitch who is an OUTSTANDING specimen of her breed by ANYONE's standards, one elbow DJD1 or NOT.
  #29  
Old 03-06-2007, 04:32 PM
bubbatd's Avatar
bubbatd bubbatd is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 64,812
Default

I think it's time that both of you take this to PMing . It's going no where here --- except getting ugly .
__________________
A light for all who are crossing dark times.


http://mauzysmusings.blogspot.com/
  #30  
Old 03-06-2007, 04:36 PM
J's crew J's crew is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,228
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedyreRottweilers View Post
How many dogs in ANY breed finish multiple Championship titles, (UKC at 7 months of age in 4 shows with 3 Group placements) and win Best In Show (at 13 and 17 mos of age) and High In Trial (for the first 2 legs of her UKC CD, back to back) TWICE?

How many Rottweilers finish their AKC Championship titles exclusively owner handled by 25 months of age?

This bitch is pretty, smart, of correct temperament, dead sound, likes to work, and a hot shot guard if necessary. She has drive to work, is an excellent retriever, has strong herding instinct, and is rock solid in any social situation. How many dogs can you name off the top of your head in any breed that have it all?

That one elbow graded DJD1 by the OFA will in no way slow me down in breeding this bitch. IMO she has quite a bit to offer this breed.

I guess I will say it one more time.

I have no issue with breeding this bitch, who belongs to me.

Her breeder has no issue with her being bred.

The stud dog owners I have spoken to with regard to breeding her to their dogs (yes, I already have more than one breeding planned), have no issue with breeding her to their dogs.

The people who are waiting to purchase puppies from her have no issue with her being bred.

The ARC and their Code of Ethics, to which I ascribe, has no issue with her being bred.

Now, with all THAT being said:

Who else has ANY BUSINESS being concerned with whether I breed this bitch or NOT?

And finally, as usual, you miss the entire point, Melissa. This thread is continued from another one. I didn't start this business. But I'd like to think it is now FINISHED.
Why the hostility? If you are so certain you are making the correct choice then why are you so defensive?

I think breeding topics are a great way to educate people. Is that just me?
__________________

Thanks Steveinski!
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:29 PM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site