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Old 03-06-2007, 11:23 AM
RedyreRottweilers
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Originally posted by J's Crew
Originally Posted by stevinski
that may be but the amount of dedication and work redyre puts into her dogs is completely flawless, and the amount of knowledge she has about breeding, and the research she is putting into her future litter put her above most breeders.


True. But, she is planning a breeding with a dog that has DJD. More than one person in the Rott community are VERY against this. She will try and back up her research but frankly IMO there is NO excuse to breed a dog with joint problems. The gene pool of dogs with clean health is too broad, dogs that have all that, and more.

And I wasn't trying to be snide. I DO think it is sad. I just think that alot of the members here think you are currently producing outstanding dogs. Which is not true.
As I stated in the other thread, I have produced NOTHING of merit in my one surviving litter which was born in 1996.

My decision to breed my bitch who has ONE elbow graded DJD1 from OFA, and who was graded as NORMAL in both elbows from OVC, has not been made lightly.

There has been significant interest in this breeding, and at this time I am not taking any more reservations for it.

You would not purchase a puppy from it, nor would you choose to breed her if she were yours. That's fine. Your choice, and your decision.

Breeding decisions should not be based on ONE ITEM. The decision to breed this bitch and the responsibility that goes with it, and the results of it as time goes by, lie with me and her breeder, and no one else.

It is the consensus of a majority of people in this breed that eliminating all dogs who have an elbow rating of DJD grade 1 could be DISASTROUS to this gene pool down the road. NO breed club globally excludes Rottweilers graded DJD1 in the elbows from breeding. Not one. Not Germany, not Sweden, Denmark, all of whom are well known for their stringent requirements for breeding.

It pays to be careful with a tarbrush. It's hard to use one without getting a little on yourself.

You should also be careful with what you state. My bitch does NOT have joint problems. According to OVC in Canada she is normal, and I do not appreciate your characterization of her as having "joint problems".

She is working regularly over jumps in obedience, and being road worked daily, and she is dead sound, as she always has been. I think if she had "joint problems" I would know it by now.
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Old 03-06-2007, 12:21 PM
J's crew J's crew is offline
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Your right, my choice. I was responding to a statement that congratulated you on producing fine specimines of your breed. I simply stated my opinion. That's allowed, right?

So, since you want to lay it all out on the table, why after OFA stated she had Degenerative Joint Disease did you go to OVC? Maybe because they are more leaniante (sp)?

And I never said she wasn't sound. But she does have a long line of family with DJD, correct?
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Old 03-06-2007, 12:36 PM
Angel Chicken
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*edited*

Last edited by Angel Chicken; 03-06-2007 at 12:57 PM.
  #4  
Old 03-06-2007, 12:41 PM
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planet molosser planet molosser is offline
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Breeding 2 clear OFA dogs does NOT produce all Clear OFA dogs.
It is sibling reports and many generations of cleared dogs _that help REDUCE the HD in pups.

OFA clearings are done on 3 Vets opinion. 2 Vets say Fail one says pass the dog fails and vs versa.

They rate BOTH hips together for a rating.

That is why I like Penn hip.

Breeding should be done on a whole package .
Temperament is the #1 killer of most of these big breeds .

Dogs with a borderline rating in one hip does NOT mean they wlll ever have CLINCAL HD. Moderate and or or high ratings are not to be bred.

I have a female with GDC one hip clear one hip grad 1 out of 3.

She produced OFA goods and NO HD in any litter and she is alive and well today at age 10 Working dog.

Now these are facts im not getting between 2 people who may want to battle this out.

Breeding a <clinically> HD affected dog or any dog with inherted disease that requires the intervention of Vets to live is WRONG.

Breeding a dog with many qualities PROVEn with hips scores that are low or too high ( depending on co) is based on that breeders decision and if they stand by the pups they produce _ .

Either way the fact that you guys are xraying and asking the correct questions are a great thing. Missing in action in rare breeds who are bred with NOthing > NO show work ofa or tests.

My question which I can not ask in rare breeds is .
How is the siblings ratings from this failed OFA dog? and what is behind this dog? in HD clearances?
That will tell us all a much clearer picture.
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Last edited by planet molosser; 03-06-2007 at 01:05 PM.
  #5  
Old 03-06-2007, 12:41 PM
RedyreRottweilers
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Anyone can go to OFA and check her background.

Since elbow screening only BEGAN in 1990, you can bet every Rottweiler walking has a long line of family with DJD.

As you have stated before on this very forum, her health records are an open book.
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Old 03-06-2007, 12:45 PM
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I don't know Jack about Show dogs.. what I do know... me being a working dog buyer/trainer would never choose Penny or the Bloodline. I've told you that before. You think my opinion is scrap and that's ok.
You accomplished alot with Penny you should be happy with that, I'm sure all your hard work and time will pay you off when you breed her and sell the pups. What else would you do to compensate your hard work and energies for all her Titles. To spay her wouldn't justify your cause. But doing so would make you appear Reputable to the non-breeder like myself.
Just my opinion again.
I believe this is the first person who ever challanged your ethics in my presence... and I'm glad.. it's good for your closed-mindedness.
  #8  
Old 03-06-2007, 12:54 PM
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Sorry anyone who SHOWS works and or Health and Temperament tests a bitch . They know you do NOT make your money back when breeding.

It is the people who make a top stud champion and some want the money back by studding the dog out to every dam bitch who is willing to pay the fee with no regards to improving just making back the money.

So sorry those statements come from people who never spent $500 on a show weekend, X 10 show weekends or 20 or even 5. + $150 in gase to get to a temperament test, or $300 for Penn hip $150 for OFA.

People who work show and test do this to BETTER the breed NOT to
get compensated" for the money they spent.

Even thou breaking even would be NICE one day.

This is if someone has 1 or few litters a year.

If someone is breeding 25 pups a year that is a awefull lot .
I say 25 cause I dont know how big Rottie litters can be .
That 25 could be 2 litters.

Maybe she sould spay her start over with another line, get a passing OFA
and find out the dog carries a disease only passed in the bloodline as a carrier.

Now I do not know any of you but I will say this NOT liking someone is fine.
But assuming things about show work or ofa without direct knowledge is just dog politics based on opinions of who likes who not facts.
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  #9  
Old 03-06-2007, 12:59 PM
RedyreRottweilers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelissaCato View Post
I don't know Jack about Show dogs.. what I do know... me being a working dog buyer/trainer would never choose Penny or the Bloodline. I've told you that before. You think my opinion is scrap and that's ok.
You accomplished alot with Penny you should be happy with that, I'm sure all your hard work and time will pay you off when you breed her and sell the pups. What else would you do to compensate your hard work and energies for all her Titles. To spay her wouldn't justify your cause. But doing so would make you appear Reputable to the non-breeder like myself.
Just my opinion again.
I believe this is the first person who ever challanged your ethics in my presence... and I'm glad.. it's good for your closed-mindedness.
You should comment, Melissa.

So I should spay my multi UKC BIS, multi UKC High in Trial Multi BOS BOB winning AKC CH at 25 months hip, eye, heart, thyroid, and, according to OVC, ELBOW normal bitch because OFA says she has one elbow grade 1 DJD?

I am not closed minded.

I have consulted numerous people who have more knowledge and experience in this breed than I probably will ever have, and asked for their honest opinions on breeding this bitch. I can count on one hand the people who would not breed her if she were theirs. Fact is, she is mine, and she will be bred.

As I have said before, the proof is in the pudding. Get back to me in 5 years or so, and I'll let you know if breeding her was the right decision. And if it was NOT the right decision, I won't have any trouble admitting it, and telling exactly why.

All persons who acquire a puppy bred by me will be required to test hips, elbows, eyes and heart, and to report and fully disclose all results to the OFA data base for all eyes to see, and so that others can do proper research when they try to plan a breeding.

My disaster litter was from 2 parents certified to be OFA elbow normal. I have a severely dysplastic bitch who is lame, VERY lame, at FIVE years old that I am looking at making a heart breaking decision for much sooner than I have prayed I would. She is also from both parents OFA elbow normal.

There are no guarantees in breeding dogs. Not ever. For ME personally, and apparently for the interested prospective puppy buyers, her virtues outweigh the negative of one elbow being DJD1.

I am comfortable with breeding this bitch. Her breeder is comfortable with her being bred. I am within the Code of Ethics of ANY Rottweiler club globally making the decision to breed this bitch.

You all can hash out my ethics all you like here, or elsewhere, or anywhere. What happens with the progeny of this breeding will also be an open book.

So keep a check on the OFA site in a couple years. You can enjoy with me as results come in and are posted on the puppies that result.
  #10  
Old 03-06-2007, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
based on opinions of who likes who not facts.
I would say who likes Quality in a Dog... not who likes who.

DJD1 for my needs isn't Quality, among many other things.

Now if it's Quality for a AKC Show Dog.. then so be it.
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