Ugh, so it gets worse:
Her: Okay, you think I am evil. I GET IT. Really. Can we move on now to the topic of Coco's depression and what seemed to bring her back? Oh, yeah, I'm sorry; that's not in your little textbook is it? She's 7 and therefore I'm evil. I guess depression doesn't happen to dogs in your universe, does it?
How many other different words can you use? Try your thesaurus; you might find it helpful as you are clearly running out of pejoratives.
You still haven't answered what I've said.
You do not live with my dog. You did not see her all the years she was just a warm furry lump who didn't interact with humans or dogs. Yes, that's YEARS. A few THOUSAND days that she just ate, peed, pooped and slept. Nothing else. She was 5 years younger than my oldest chi (now nearly 13 with Cushings, arthritis, diabetes and blind -- no doubt you'll find a way to blame me for all that, too) and yet EVERY OBSERVER of the two swore that Coco was the elder of the two. Does that tell even YOU something??!!
You can call me all the names you like. You still do not know my dog. I'm sorry, my dogs are members of my family. They don't sleep in crates, they sleep with me. They birth and nurse in my bed. I cook their meals. I bottle-feed the littlest pups. I've had to fight the FDA and US Customs to obtain access to the medicine that my oldest Chi REQUIRES to control her Cushings but isn't readily available in the US. I tailor my homecooking for her multiple health conditions, including the samon oil and flax oil that my vet swore couldn't help her dry eye condition, which he said couldn't get better, but seemingly has. So much for my being an unadulterated *sshole.
You act as though I haven't read every bad case example on the web of breeding dogs. I have. You act as though I haven't read everything I can about merles -- both pro and con. I have. You act as though, posessing absolutely perfect knowledge, you choose not to share it (regarding a profoundly depressed dog and the route that has seemingly brought her back to life) but instead choose to profess your own superiority. Hear the sound of one hand clapping? It's your own.
I am glad that your own life is so perfect and organized that your life is not mine. Congratulations. Pat yourself on the back on what a perfect specimen of humanity you are. Get yourself a halo while you're at it.
And then explain to yourself yet again how awful I am when Coco's babies are born and they are all gorgeous and healthy, and Coco too. Oh, and happy. When was the last time your breeding mother let her 1 or 2 year old former puppies try to nurse? That's just how STRONG Coco's mothering instincts are. It may well not fit "the norm". I don't claim that it does. But it IS Coco's norm. But you reject that, sight unseen. a priori (look it up).
Not only do you know nothing of it, you CHOOSE to know nothing of it. You reject the notion entirely, making this entire discussion irrelevant.
God forbid that any of your dogs EVER develops profound depression. Your compassion simply doesn't stretch that far, does it? If it doesn't fit in your little textbook of definitions, it doesn't count, does it?!
I never said that Coco should be the norm. You don't even want to accept her on her own terms.
And, as for taking the word of the breeder who lied to me, why should I take the word of somebody who lied to me? Do you lie? Do you believe liars? Do you expect people to believe your lies?
Really, your sympathy for a lying breeder is questionable indeed. Can you wonder why people don't take breeder's requests seriously when they learn that they've been lied to? Because, if you can, there is no room for further discourse as you clearly believe that lying is acceptable. Lie to somebody else. I at least have been entirely honest.
Oh, wow! So, you " don't care if your other spayed bitch had a nicked colon" -- really? When did you last sit with a young dog with such a condition without pain meds? Are you insane? Are you really so utterly insensitive that such a situation wouldn't have left you HIGHLY FEARFUL of having a repeat of the same performed on a dog you loved? Talk about taking the moral high ground. So, you think I'm awful for having a 7 y.o. pregnant dog but would think nothing about subjecting a dog to a really awful surgical outcome. Do you look better now? I'm not certain it's so obvious. I guess some would say it's great that you'd be in a race to subject your on dogs to a repeat performance. I wasn't. That makes me a loser, right?
You clearly must not love your dogs if you can make such a claim. Buttercup was in AWFUL pain AND had involuntary bladder voids AND involuntary watery stool voids. Oh, and did I mention that she was in incredible pain? Great yelping, crying pain? Such pain that the vet's office couldn't understand me over her cries? Is your heart made of stone? And her vet dragged their heels accepting responsibility for it. I had to FIGHT to get her pain meds. It was YEARS later that I finally got somebody to look over her files and admit that the surgery was either problemmatic or botched.
I don't know where to begin or end. Let's just hope that you never have a girl dog who has serious complications with spaying surgery... and that you never have a profoundly depressed dog who defies textbook definitions... Or a 7 y.o. pregnant chi who goes on to deliver in full health healthy, happy chihuahuas.
Consult your thesaurus... I'm outta here. Rain your pejoratives on someone else."
Someone else: "Hoping not to put my foot in my mouth here~But I do remember in 1 of her post that she *mentioned* the breeder *didn't* want her bred. She said she waited a *few years*& she got pregnant. If a breeder asked me not to breed her Chihuahua~ I would live up to what the person had asked of me. I've read here that some of the people here ask for a contract to be signed& I think that is a great idea. Maybe stipulate that if the dog *does* have pups that the dog&All her pups be returned to her or take them to court. I just believe personally in *honoring* a person/breeders request. I have to agree again with Jessie~ a dog can't say they love being pregnant& I don't don't think it helps to keep them young. I would think after a certain age~ it would be a strain on their body."
Her: "I understand what you say to an extent. I certainly don't think that "pregnancy keeps them young" or any such thing.
My only point is that, at a point, Coco lost the will to be involved in life. Sure, she ate. She slept. She pooped and peed. And she slept some more, and then the cycle started again.
THIS WAS NOT THE PUPPY WE BROUGHT IN TO OUR HOME. And it started after her main playmate (Buttercup's littermate) died of congestive heart failure (prior to mitral valve replacements being done in US veterinary medicine).
I'm not a huge believer in anthropomorphism (and at least I know both what the word is as well as how to spell it! -- this is not a jab at you, Cara).
I would have agreed with Jesse's post on the face of it had she chosen not to become personally abusive. At least on a surface-level value.
One the one hand, we have the argument that dogs, unlike humans, do not possess the "need" to see themselves reproduced for their own ego's sake.
Seems logical enough.
But the expansion of the argument goes that non-humans aren't logical like humans are (to the extent that humans are, indeed, logical).
Dogs may well not feel the emotional human need of reproduction, but it is difficult, if, nay, UNSCIENTIFIC, to argue that they are not hardwired to *need* or at least respond to the biological urge to reproduce.
That means that they are hardwired to reproduce. Not that THAT means we as humans should assist it given any means necessary. I certainly do not believe that.
But, as Coco's human companion, I have definitely witnessed that each litter (the first and last being accidental) has seemed to bring her more and more out of a profound depression such that she now interacts not only with her recent litter, but, indeed, with ALL the pack dogs and also with the pack humans (e.g., my kids).
I previously asked Jesse for an alternate universe explanation to this and she apparently declined in favor of throwing pejoratives in my direction.
IF YOU HAVE AN ALTERNATE EXPLANATION, I'D LOVE TO HEAR IT! That applies to anyone reading this thread. It is an honest request.
Buttercup, my nearly 13 y.o. chi who had the awful spay experience, doesn't seem to mourn not having puppies of her own (alth'o she *has* seemed to have adopted one of Coco's babies, my Bluebell, and plays with her and excessively grooms her), so I am prepared to accept the *generality* of what Jesse claims. I accepted it myself prior to Coco's pregnancies. I am not a hypocrite.
My guess is that while it is generally true, that Coco still truly derives some emotional sustenance from being pregnant and having puppies. AS I HAVE SAID, I am open to alternate explanations.
It's just that nobody's presented any.
And, again, I'm sorry, but, no, why should I believe somebody who has lied to me? If you want people to believe you, DON'T LIE TO THEM.
<<hint hint: not for Cara: breeders: don't lie to your buyers. you breed what you sow. if you lie, don't be surprised or even morally indignent when people do other than what you have asked with your lying assertions>>"