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Old 02-12-2007, 01:14 PM
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jason_els jason_els is offline
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I've given-up on full crate training my 8-week old guys. I've now put them in the pen with lots of newspaper and a Purina litter box with more newspaper. I'm going to train them to use that until they're old enough to hold through the night.

They beat me. I tried taking them out every 2 hours all weekend and I got, since Saturday morning (pups arrived Saturday pm), 6 hours of sleep. There's no way I could continue taking them out every 2 hours. The good part is they do like the crate and sleep in it. I'm going to newspaper everything under it and try to put them in the box every time they go so they know newspaper is ok to use. The breeder was using newspaper as well so they're not unfamiliar with it. I'm going to read-up more on litterbox training.

I feel bad that I had to revert but at 8 weeks it will be months before they can hold their bowels long enough to permit me to work and sleep. There is no one else to help me with them and it finally dawned on me that I run the house and have to get their schedule and mine to find a good medium. I've been so worn-out I haven't been able to be a good puppy owner. I haven't had time to train them though we have had one-on-one getting-to-know-you quiet time. I concluded that if I'm going to be a good owner for them there will have to be some compromises and while crate training is ideal, I can't keep getting-up or rushing home every 2 hours. It's stressful on me and on the dogs and doesn't permit me time to work. I've tried letting them go 3 hours but 2 is their limit for now.

I've paper trained before and it worked great. Transitioning isn't easy but then it's not all that difficult either. Litter, or newspaper box training looks to be a happy compromise. As I haven't found a way to treat them yet, all I can give is enthusiasm and that doesn't seem appropriate enough for something like proper elimination. So until then, we're in newspapers everywhere mode.

I still haven't found a treat they respond to. I'm going to get some string cheese and turkey slices. They have no interest in the dried treats.

I appreciate thoughts, tips, and opinions on this. I wish I could keep-up the outdoor schedule but at night between the late hour and the near zero temps, it's too hard on me and the dogs. The littler of the two starts shivering something awful in just a few minutes and I have to warm him afterwards. He gets so cold it scares me. Now we have a big dump of snow coming that will be far taller than they are and I worry about wet snow getting into their coats causing them chills.

Thanks again for all your help!
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Old 02-12-2007, 03:27 PM
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Where are you at and how big is a pumi? Maybe you can compare it to another breed to give me an idea. I have a very small Collie. He was only 4 lbs when I got him and your right, 2 hours wasn't nearly enough. We were taking him out every 20 minutes when he was awake. But - he was able to go from like 9 or 10 pm until 7am or so with only one run outside during the night until he was like 8 - 10 weeks old. We gave him no food or water after 7pm.

You gotta do what you gotta do - plus you have 2 puppies not one and chances are they both don't always go at the same time. Like having twins I imagine. I hope it works out for you - Good Luck.....
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:19 PM
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As I said before ......double trouble . Sounds like they are in the same pen . Another no-no . Good luck !!
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:46 PM
Saje Saje is offline
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I guess I'm kind of lost. I must have missed why you got two at the same time and couldn't rehome the second? This is a very short time to give up on crate training. Are they not sleeping through the night? If they are sleeping through the night and you feed the last meal early in the evening I doubt you'd need to get up and take them out more than once. Unless they are fussing of course. Up to you! Seems like you are adding more work though.
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:50 PM
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Thank you for your replies. I really do appreciate it

Yes, they're in the same pen. In that I have no choice. I don't have another tiled room in which to put them. As they get older I will separate them more often and, eventually, give them separate pens. For right now though it's just not practical for me. My dad lives with me and he's not a dog person and he's set in his ways. I think he'll come to love the dogs too but he doesn't need the stress as he's not well.

I spoke to the vet about littermate syndrome and he wasn't worried. I'm not terribly worried either. Both are becoming quite attached to me. I do take them out separately for periods of time. Today they spent an hour apart and there was no whining or anxiety from either of them. They both know I'm the boss. I don't treat them like children, they're dogs. I decide what they do and when. I lead. I think that's the most important thing.

I just have to keep telling myself a lot of dogs don't have the love and care I provide to my dogs and that they'll turn out ok.

Last night I took them out one last time before bed and then I went to sleep and got a good 7 hours. Amazing how a little sleep helps to put things in perspective. I can now clean the house, run errands, and such.

The first weeks are always the hardest as they adjust to me and I adjust to them. I'm confident we'll find a happy medium.
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saje View Post
I guess I'm kind of lost. I must have missed why you got two at the same time and couldn't rehome the second? This is a very short time to give up on crate training. Are they not sleeping through the night?
I got two because I didn't want either of them to end-up in a mill or another bad place. There's a thread I made in the general section about what went on.

I gave-up on the crate training because they can't hold it through the night. They need to go every 2 hours. I've tried going longer but they're not able to hold it and I know it's the worst thing to have them mess in the crate. I can't wake-up every 2 hours to take them outside, particularly when it takes very little time for them to become very cold. We've had nights in the single digits and one poor guy shivers so badly in just a minute or two that I have to rewarm him in a blanket afterwards. His coat isn't as thick as his brother's. The vet gave him an ok though, listened to his lungs and heart, took his temp. He's not sick, just not as strong. I don't want them to get sick.

During the day I take them out every 2 hours and they're good with that. Soon as we go out they pee and I praise liberally.

My vet was ok with withdrawing food but not water. He says they should have access to water throughout the night so I can't shut that off.

Again, they're 9 weeks. While some dogs might go 3 hours at that age, these guys don't and yes, they generally poop at separate times.

As to rehoming. I spoke to the breed club and offered to keep them both until they're 6 months. At that time they can be neutered and it's at that point I'll decide. One of the dogs is very outgoing and happy and dominant, the other less so. We'll see how it goes.
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:23 PM
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Access to water all night is not necessary as long as they have free access to it during the day.

I pick up water no later than 10pm on ALL puppies.

Your puppies are INFANTS at 8 weeks, and you should in no way expect a puppy of that age to be crate trained or clean throughout the night.

Separate sleeping arrangements should be a priority for you at this point so you can tell who is going when.
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:36 PM
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Jason, you HAVE to start seperating them now. You've not had them for more than a couple days, everything is stil new to them at this point so of course they're not going to look like they're bonding to each other.

Another thing, they are much too young to be taken out just every 2 hours. During the day, set a timer for every 30 minutes. Take them out religiously. Also, immediately after waking up from sleep or a nap, after playing and after eating. Praise profusely for going outside. Then crate them SEPERATELY when you cannot be paying full attention to them. Pick up food after 8pm, water by 10pm. Take them out at least twice more before bed time, put them in their seperate crates and set the alarm for 2am. Take them out once more. They should be able to hold it until 6am.

Potty training one pup is a PIA, potty-training two even more so. You took on the responsiblity of two pups at once, it's your job to see it through. You can't get lazy at all, because the habits they learn now are the ones they will keep with them through their lifetime. Yes, sleeping is going to be cut back quite a bit. You should have realized this before agreeing to two pups. Even if you rehome one at 6 months, what are you going to be passing on with that dog?

EVERYTHING must remain structured and consistant. Giving up now is only going to confuse them more. Pick a method and stick with it. I'd stick with the crates, personally.
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:39 PM
Saje Saje is offline
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I agree with Red. They need to be separate for a lot of reasons. Littermate syndrome is the least of your concerns. You need to be able to regulate who eats what, what is going in and how it's coming out. You may think that the only reason to separate is so they don't bond too much but there is a lot more to it than that.

I never suggested that you pull water up. Some think it's a great idea. It's a matter of opinion. Vets have different opinions too. Personally, I don't pull water up.

You've been given good advice on this forum Jason. I really hope you'll take some of it to heart so you can prevent future problems.

Edit: I agree with Zoom as well. She posted at the same time.
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Old 02-13-2007, 02:46 PM
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You didn't want them to end up in a shelter. But by not potty training them properly now, that's where they may well end up, that is...unless you don't mind two grown dogs peeing and pooping all over your house. If you let them pee on newspapers in the house, that's still peeing in the house to them. They will not be able to discern the difference very well. If you decide to find one or both a home, who's going to want to adopt one or two un-housebroken dogs? They're very difficult to potty train as adults.

They're infants, like it was said. They barely know it's coming when it comes out. They need to be taken out at least every 30-60 minutes during the day. Keep them up as late as you can and still get enough sleep and you should be able to get away with one trip during the night. Personally, I have never withheld water from any dog, but that's up to you.

Nobody has a puppy potty trained by 8 weeks. That's just totally unreasonable. My Dobe was about 10 months old by the time he was reliable. They're all different. I've had dogs learn within a few weeks or a month. This is part of owning a puppy. Training them and developing discipline and patience within yourself. I don't mean to sound so blunt, but I hate to think of you having a miserable time with them later. Puppyhood lasts a short time, but adult hood is years. Six months is the average time for housebreaking. Average. But if these pups don't have consistancy in their training, they'll be miserable to live with. They can not learn this on their own.

If you want to turn this around, read the stickies in the training forum on house breaking. There are some good tips. It's work, diligence, discipline, routine, a BIG change of life style. The time you usually use for your own thing is now used up for taking care of puppies, watching them, taking them out often, teaching them things, making sure they're not being reiforced for unwanted behavior. That's the way it is when you choose to have a puppy. When you choose to have two puppies, its all double the work.

About the cold, how cold is it? What breed are these pups? Where I live, it can be anywhere from 25-30 F to 25-30 below zero F and about 3-4 feet of snow. I have all smooth coated dogs, from Doberman, to a mix, to two Chihuahuas. They all go outside to potty without coats and can come right back in. They do not have an option. They're fine.

Find a treat your pups like. Anything that needs to eat to sustain life will like food, especially if it's extra good and if they're not just stuffed from their meal. Get some tiny pieces of fresh meat; chicken, liver, steak, pot roast, filet mignon with bernaise' sauce and mushrooms on top. Surely, there must be something they love. That's what needs to be given the instant they finish going outside and loads of praise. Accidents must be prevented inside. Consistancy and they'll get onto it in time.

Otherwise, if you continue to feel defeated and cave, you're going to have two unenjoyable adult dogs to contend with or for someone else to contend with. Good luck. Get tough! LOL.
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