8 rules for using aversives

[sam]

for Carrie, as promised

I had the opportunity to go to clicker expo and see Steve White who is a police dog trainer. He was fabulous. He started his career in dogs in the military and police using fairly scary compulsion methods. He now uses clicker training type methods , although obviously not always actually using a clicker since it's hard to hold a leash, a gun, a flashlight and a clicker He is still training police dogs but also training police dog trainers to use
non-compulsive methods.
His results have been staggering- they are training dogs with a much higher degree of reliability, a higher percentage of dogs complete the program and dogs are completing the program and out working faster. He tours the country as a consultant to other K9 units. He also consults to service dog programs. His website is www.i2ik9.com incase anyone wanst to check him out.

Steve talked about a variety of things. One of the things he talked about was the problems that arose in training dogs with traditional methods for police work and tracking. He had what he called the 8 rules for using aversives - which basically shows how hard it is to use aversives in a useful way, that actually teaches the dog something and without huge negative consequences.

so...The 8 rules for using aversives (in order for them to work in training)

1) It must be something the dog doesn't like and does not expect.

--are collar pops unexpected ? heck no

2) It must actually suppress the behavior

-using aversives that don't work is at best nagging, at worst abuse

3) It must be applied in the perfect intensity

Too much / too harsh = dog shuts down and can't learn
Too little / not harsh enough = development of a "punishment callous" actually teaches dog to become imune to punishment and "tough it out"

4) Must be IMMEDIATE

or it won't be associated with the behavior you're trying to suppress

5) Must be associated with the behavior
and not you-- other wise you get a dog whose behavior is suppressed in your presence, but continues when you aren't present.
"sneaky dog syndrome" = the dog associates the punishment with YOU more so than the behavior.
Steve commented how dogs often don't understand what they are being punished for but how they are remarkably good at figuring it that YOU are involved or connected somehow- even when using hands off tools like electronic collars.

6) Must happen EVERY TIME the behavior does
-otherwise you are just putting the misbehavior on a variable reinforcement scheduel which just makes the behavior stronger and harder to extinguish

7) There must be an alternative behavior trained or available to the dog
- trying to punish away a behavior that is really strong doesn't work unless you replace it with another behavior
ie punishing a dog for jumping up when he greets isn't usually successful unless you reinforce an alternate greeting behavior like sitting - the dog is social and has a strong desire to greet.

8) The aversive must never outweigh the reinforcement in the dogs mind
-or the dog "checks out" and learning shuts down

Steve also talked about teaching crossover dogs (dogs that had been originally trained with force and aversives) and about teaching 'advanced decision making skills' to dogs. Very interesting stuff.

[dr2little]

I'm so glad that you posted this Sam. I saw this in an issue of APDT chronical but couldn't find it when I wanted to share it. Very interesting.

Do you mind if I save this and perhaps post it again on other forums? I've been struggling on other forums with people that push and push the correctional methods, and I think this would be a wonderful thing to post.

[Doberluv]

Thank you so much Sam, for posting this very important information. Yes, Steve White is remarkable and it's so good to hear how influential he is. That is so true about aversives, how ineffective and potentially damaging they are. I'm so glad you posted this.

It's a very strange phenomenon, that with the more intelligent training methods out there for the world to see and they have been for some time, that compulsive and stern treatment to dogs still flourishes. It's really quite amazing to me. I guess it's because for years we have been told we have to be the "alpha" and we have to dominate and be stern with our dogs or they can't possibly understand us and they'll rise up and take over our households. So, people are always looking for what kind of aversive they can do, be it yanking, spraying things in their faces, grabbing their muzzles, shouting, "NO!!!!" at them. I just wish people would think of what they can do to get their dog to do the behavior they want their dog to do, rather that what behavior they do not want their dog to do. If people would turn their brains over onto the flip side and start learning how to "train with a brain," the world would be a lot fairer for our dogs. Heaven knows...they deserve the best.

Thank you again for posting this.

[Cassie Abbott]

I watched his videos and it amazed me how quickly that Aussie picked up on the scent detection. I also thought it was pretty cool that he had a vid of a K9 from the Bremerton PD, which is my hometown. Plus that retrieving a hot dog thing looks like a pretty cool skill.

[jason_els]

This is really good and explains why aversives aren't a good idea for non-professional trainers. I hope a lot of people will read this. I learned something!

[sam]

Originally Posted by tessa_s212

Do you mind if I save this and perhaps post it again on other forums? I've been struggling on other forums with people that push and push the correctional methods, and I think this would be a wonderful thing to post.

Do whatcha like with it. I basically regurgitated the notes I took in his seminar which I don't *think* are copyrighted. I hope I haven't done anything wrong by posting it here. I don't think so.
Steve is a very cool guy and basically and basically siad the important thing is to get the word out. He talked about once seeing a guy who had come to one of his seminars later teaching seminars based on his stuff (with no mention of or credit given to Steve- he seemed to think it was the sincerest form of flattery.

Cassie--I've been meaning to try teaching the hotdog retrieve to my dogs for a while now. A friend of mine did it with her collie and it sure is the best party trick I've ever seen!

[sam]

Originally Posted by jason_els

This is really good and explains why aversives aren't a good idea for non-professional trainers. I hope a lot of people will read this. I learned something!

Certainly pros are better at using ANY method but Steve's point is actually not that aversives should only be used by pros, but that there are actually far better methods out there that just WORK BETTER to teach dogs. He isn't about to say that he NEVER uses a correction or *any* aversive tool but he did say that the last police dog he trained got a grand total of 4 corrections in the course of his training from the very start to being a fully fledged working police dog. There are better ways!

[Sugardog]

Nice post Sam!

Doberluv, I have just managed to put two and two together and figured out who you were from another forum. I feel reallllllly stupid now lol

[Doberluv]

Sugardog, I never thought of that. Over there, I use my real name, Carrie. It never occured to me to tell you that I was one in the same. How did you put two and two together? Is it my long posts? LOL! Anyhow, you shouldn't feel stupid. How could someone with the name, Carrie call herself Doberluv? LOL. Not much of a connection there......except maybe that I love Dobermans. (?) And maybe you saw my dog's name, Lyric written in both places.