Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Puppy Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 02-13-2007, 02:51 PM
Saje Saje is offline
Island dweller
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 23,932
Default

That's another good point. You say that you love your pups and at least they have a safe warm home. This is so true. Nobody doubts that. But what about when these problems escalate? When you come home tired and find yourself frustrated and losing patience? Will you be short tempered? Will you withhold affection because they are on your last nerve? How will your dad handle it? These are things that you can't foresee but with proper training you can probably prevent it. You don't seem very open to any of this advice but I really hope you will reconsider. We really do just want to help you and your pups.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-13-2007, 03:46 PM
bubbatd's Avatar
bubbatd bubbatd is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 64,812
Default

Jason ....excellent advice is being given to you . For all involved ..( expecially for the pups ) please take to heart .
__________________
A light for all who are crossing dark times.


http://mauzysmusings.blogspot.com/
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-13-2007, 03:58 PM
dr2little's Avatar
dr2little dr2little is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,402
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbatd View Post
Jason ....excellent advice is being given to you . For all involved ..( expecially for the pups ) please take to heart .
I have to agree with Grammy, Jason. You have been given great advise and that advise will absolutely help you to get your new pups on track. News paper and joint accomodations will without a doubt make it almost impossible to properly train your new babies.
Two pups are a handful, but two pups without proper training...just a frightening thought.
__________________


I LOVE my new siggy Baxter'smybaby, THANK YOU SO MUCH....you're the BEST!!!!!!!

http://www.diamondintheruffcalgary.com/
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-13-2007, 05:07 PM
jason_els's Avatar
jason_els jason_els is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Warwick, New York, USA
Posts: 463
Default

I'm getting confused here.

There are quite a few different opinions being given and they don't all quite agree.

Today they are 9 weeks. According to Ian Dunbar and people here, the general rule is they can hold for 1 hour for every month of life plus one hour. So most pups should be able to hold for 3 hours at 9 weeks. My guys do not sleep through the night. They need to pee every 2 hours.

What I'm not quite getting is if it's unreasonable to expect an 8-week old pup to be housetrained because they can't physically hold it, then it sounds like I'm setting them up to fail by trying to train them to do something they can't physically accomplish.

Are you also saying they should spend all time in the crate (save for potty breaks)? Should they not have a play area inside?

As to water, I'm loathe to go against my vet's advice as convenient as it may be for me. I'm not discounting taking away water, not all vets agree on what's appropriate and what isn't.

What if I have to do something that takes longer to do than 2 hours? This is my biggest issue. Even grocery shopping can take 2 hours. Any other shopping definitely requires going over 2 hours as my town is pretty small and we have to drive everywhere. Every 30 minutes with even one puppy is simply impossible as I'd never get anything done, I'd never sleep, I couldn't work, I couldn't shop, I couldn't do anything.

Every other dog I've had I've gone the newspaper route so it is familiar to me and that, I'm sure, adds to my reluctance. Up to about 6 months you keep them on newspaper while taking them out during the day. If they need to go in the house they use the newspaper. After that you reduce the size of the newspapered area and bring some soiled newspaper outside with you. It works. By about 8 months all the dogs of myself and my family have been mostly housetrained and by a year they're completely housetrained. You praise and encourage going outside but don't scold if they use the newspaper.

The Weather Channel just had a vet on saying a puppy shouldn't go outside when it's under 25F. It's 19F out now. Who am I to believe with this? If they can't go outside then they must stay someplace warm and that's the house. Now I don't quite believe that vet as plenty of cold weather dogs live where it gets far colder, but it illustrates the point that a lot of experts conflict when it comes to what's best. I wouldn't leave them out at that temp, but a quick in/out isn't too bad. It's when it's below 10F that really has me concerned as they cold so quickly.

I'm not discounting what everyone is saying. You all have impressed upon me the need for a second crate and I will do that. See? I'm not completely unreasonable . Ian Dunbar has a picture of a crate pen in his book. It shows a crate with food and water in a small pen with a potty place. You crate train the dog to use the potty area for times you can't directly supervise the dog. When the dog is old enough to hold for substantial periods of time, you train for always going outside. He argues this sets-up the dog for success while allowing the dog to eliminate when it needs to when it's younger. That's the method that appears to work best for me. When I'm home and not sleeping, they go outside. They wake me in the morning and as soon as they do they're outside with me and then we go out every 2 hours until bed time. Times when I'm away for longer than 2 hours or asleep, I leave the crate open so they can use the newspaper.

Is there a problem with this if I setup 2 separate pens with a crate, food, water, and a potty place for each? The crate/pens will have to be in the same room for now. There is another area I can use as well but I can't watch both areas at the same time.

I realize not everyone will agree on what choices are made, but perhaps a consensus?

Thank you all very much for taking the time to help me out.
__________________
People may scoff at you, who see not the lightest blade of grass bent by his footfall, who hear no whimper pitched too fine for mere audition, people who may never really have had a dog. Smile at them, for you shall know something that is hidden from them and which is well worth the knowing. - Lord Byron
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-13-2007, 05:25 PM
Saje Saje is offline
Island dweller
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 23,932
Default

Okay, I'll try and break it down for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_els View Post
I'm getting confused here.

There are quite a few different opinions being given and they don't all quite agree.

Today they are 9 weeks. According to Ian Dunbar and people here, the general rule is they can hold for 1 hour for every month of life plus one hour. So most pups should be able to hold for 3 hours at 9 weeks. My guys do not sleep through the night. They need to pee every 2 hours.
Your guys have not even been given the chance to adjust to a new home and schedule before you quit on them. This is not magic. It won't happen overnig
ht.
Quote:
What I'm not quite getting is if it's unreasonable to expect an 8-week old pup to be housetrained because they can't physically hold it, then it sounds like I'm setting them up to fail by trying to train them to do something they can't physically accomplish.
I'm not sure how you are saying that. Are you setting children up for failure if you try to get them to understand the concepts of pottytraining before they can make it through the night? Is my school setting me up for failure by giving me skills that I won't be ready to use yet? This is training. It takes time. It's not magic. It's not going to happen overnight. You need to slow down and take it step by step. Don't expect miracles but do try to set them up to succeed.

Quote:
Are you also saying they should spend all time in the crate (save for potty breaks)? Should they not have a play area inside?
They can play inside. Only if they are supervised and you have them out one at a time. If you can't do that then it's best to take them both outside and play with them there. At least when they go they will be going in the right place and you will hopefully be there to offer praise.



Quote:
As to water, I'm loathe to go against my vet's advice as convenient as it may be for me. I'm not discounting taking away water, not all vets agree on what's appropriate and what isn't.
Like I said before everyone has a different opinion on this. Many people sucessfully housetrain pups without taking away water so go with your gut. Especially if you have a good vet.

Quote:
What if I have to do something that takes longer to do than 2 hours? This is my biggest issue. Even grocery shopping can take 2 hours. Any other shopping definitely requires going over 2 hours as my town is pretty small and we have to drive everywhere. Every 30 minutes with even one puppy is simply impossible as I'd never get anything done, I'd never sleep, I couldn't work, I couldn't shop, I couldn't do anything.
This is why many people recommend that people with fulltime jobs either adopt an older dog or bring the pup home during holidays. But you have already made your own decisions so now you have to work with them. One option is to find a pup sitter to take you out. Maybe an elderly person who would love a break in the afternoon and then a student when school lets out. Go home on your lunch. Do the best you can. You were quite determined to bring two pups home so now you have to work with it. What would Plan B be if you were newspaper training? Would they just have to sit by their filth all day? Or run free around the house to do what they want?

Quote:
Every other dog I've had I've gone the newspaper route so it is familiar to me and that, I'm sure, adds to my reluctance. Up to about 6 months you keep them on newspaper while taking them out during the day. If they need to go in the house they use the newspaper. After that you reduce the size of the newspapered area and bring some soiled newspaper outside with you. It works. By about 8 months all the dogs of myself and my family have been mostly housetrained and by a year they're completely housetrained. You praise and encourage going outside but don't scold if they use the newspaper.
Sure, many methods will work in the end but you are dealing with two very young pups. It's a completely different story.

Quote:
The Weather Channel just had a vet on saying a puppy shouldn't go outside when it's under 25F. It's 19F out now. Who am I to believe with this? If they can't go outside then they must stay someplace warm and that's the house.
"Go outside" means what to this vet? I highly doubt a vet is telling all pet owners that a two-minute pee is bad for their health unless they are otherwise weak. I live in Canada and believe me, we don't have our pups peeing in our house.

Quote:
I'm not discounting what everyone is saying. You all have impressed upon me the need for a second crate and I will do that. See? I'm not completely unreasonable . Ian Dunbar has a picture of a crate pen in his book. It shows a crate with food and water in a small pen with a potty place. You crate train the dog to use the potty area for times you can't directly supervise the dog. When the dog is old enough to hold for substantial periods of time, you train for always going outside. He argues this sets-up the dog for success while allowing the dog to eliminate when it needs to when it's younger. That's the method that appears to work best for me. When I'm home and not sleeping, they go outside. They wake me in the morning and as soon as they do they're outside with me and then we go out every 2 hours until bed time. Times when I'm away for longer than 2 hours or asleep, I leave the crate open so they can use the newspaper.

Is there a problem with this if I setup 2 separate pens with a crate, food, water, and a potty place for each? The crate/pens will have to be in the same room for now. There is another area I can use as well but I can't watch both areas at the same time.

I realize not everyone will agree on what choices are made, but perhaps a consensus?

Thank you all very much for taking the time to help me out.
I don't know what to say to this. Is it a good idea? .. Well if you absolutely HAVE to teach your dogs to potty inside then I guess it's your best option. But, ultimately, no. In my opinion you are in over your head with the two pups. I hope you prove us wrong and have two keen pups who learn quickly!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-13-2007, 05:45 PM
dr2little's Avatar
dr2little dr2little is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,402
Default

[QUOTE=jason_els;605132]I'm getting confused here.

There are quite a few different opinions being given and they don't all quite agree.

Today they are 9 weeks. According to Ian Dunbar and people here, the general rule is they can hold for 1 hour for every month of life plus one hour. So most pups should be able to hold for 3 hours at 9 weeks. My guys do not sleep through the night. They need to pee every 2 hours.

What I'm not quite getting is if it's unreasonable to expect an 8-week old pup to be housetrained because they can't physically hold it, then it sounds like I'm setting them up to fail by trying to train them to do something they can't physically accomplish.

Are you also saying they should spend all time in the crate (save for potty breaks)? Should they not have a play area inside?
Supervised play when "empty", crating in between. Puppies should be in one of 3 places only while house training. 1) Outside for potty break 2) Right in front of you so you can watch for signs of needing to GO..and 3) In the crate when not supervised. UNLESS YOU ARE AWAY FOR MORE THAN 2-3 HOURS AT A TIME.

As to water, I'm loathe to go against my vet's advice as convenient as it may be for me. I'm not discounting taking away water, not all vets agree on what's appropriate and what isn't.
No vet will tell you to keep water available during the night.

What if I have to do something that takes longer to do than 2 hours? This is my biggest issue. Even grocery shopping can take 2 hours. Any other shopping definitely requires going over 2 hours as my town is pretty small and we have to drive everywhere. Every 30 minutes with even one puppy is simply impossible as I'd never get anything done, I'd never sleep, I couldn't work, I couldn't shop, I couldn't do anything.
Having young pups certainly isn't convenient, especially 2 young pups. Crating can and should be done when you can't supervise 100% and if they're on a feeding schedule, you can plan your shopping trips at times when they've had a chance to empty their bladders and bowels before being crated.

Every other dog I've had I've gone the newspaper route so it is familiar to me and that, I'm sure, adds to my reluctance. Up to about 6 months you keep them on newspaper while taking them out during the day. If they need to go in the house they use the newspaper. After that you reduce the size of the newspapered area and bring some soiled newspaper outside with you. It works. By about 8 months all the dogs of myself and my family have been mostly housetrained and by a year they're completely housetrained. You praise and encourage going outside but don't scold if they use the newspaper.

If you knew the number of paper trained puppies that I meet again as adults for private training due to eliminating in the house...you'd see what a mess this method can cause. Again, particularly with 2 puppies you'll have an uphill battle if you don't bite the bullet and properly outdoor train them now. Puppies are ready to learn at about 49 days....there's not a reason in the world that they can't start on their housetraining now.


The Weather Channel just had a vet on saying a puppy shouldn't go outside when it's under 25F. It's 19F out now. Who am I to believe with this? If they can't go outside then they must stay someplace warm and that's the house. Now I don't quite believe that vet as plenty of cold weather dogs live where it gets far colder, but it illustrates the point that a lot of experts conflict when it comes to what's best. I wouldn't leave them out at that temp, but a quick in/out isn't too bad. It's when it's below 10F that really has me concerned as they cold so quickly.
I find that a bit silly. I live in Calgary, it's now -22 C and my dogs all go out to potty..even the 1.3 lb Chihuahua. They aren't out there to play, they're out to do their business, there's a difference. I go with them and make sure that they're quick and safe....pretty simple to do.

I'm not discounting what everyone is saying. You all have impressed upon me the need for a second crate and I will do that. See? I'm not completely unreasonable . Ian Dunbar has a picture of a crate pen in his book. It shows a crate with food and water in a small pen with a potty place. You crate train the dog to use the potty area for times you can't directly supervise the dog. When the dog is old enough to hold for substantial periods of time, you train for always going outside. He argues this sets-up the dog for success while allowing the dog to eliminate when it needs to when it's younger. That's the method that appears to work best for me. When I'm home and not sleeping, they go outside. They wake me in the morning and as soon as they do they're outside with me and then we go out every 2 hours until bed time. Times when I'm away for longer than 2 hours or asleep, I leave the crate open so they can use the newspaper.
I have many clients who work outside the home when they get a new puppy. Unfortunately for these clients, they have no option but to provide a potty area while they're away but they're also aware that this will cause housetraining to take much longer. I just thought that because you work at home you'd be better off, as would your pups, forgoing the extra confusing steps.
If you must use an interm method, I strong suggest that instead of placing the newspaper directly on the floor, you put it inside of a large (bathmat size) rubbermaid container lid (1-2"high). This way, you can help them to make the distinction between the floor and having to jump into the potty area. This option must be taken away unless you're away for 3 hours or more.
__________________


I LOVE my new siggy Baxter'smybaby, THANK YOU SO MUCH....you're the BEST!!!!!!!

http://www.diamondintheruffcalgary.com/
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-13-2007, 06:45 PM
jason_els's Avatar
jason_els jason_els is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Warwick, New York, USA
Posts: 463
Default

Well they don't sit in their own filth. The area they have is a good 10 square feet. They're going in the corner furthest from their bed and food area. I also am taking them out from morning until they go to bed. Other than times longer than this, they have a clean pen. I have modified my schedule to make sure I'm here nearly all the time but sometimes I can't be. Every morning I clean their area using Nature's Miracle and lay down fresh paper with a sheet of previously slightly used paper in between and it stays clean because I take them out every two hours or after they've had play time.

I've done the two littermate thing before though that time I had help. We managed OK and the dogs grew-up to be happy. Back then we had a bathroom and newspaper and the dogs stayed there. We did train them separately, take them places separately, but otherwise they were together all the time.

Maybe I am in over my head. I hope I'm not. People have been raising dogs for thousands of years and I'm sure I'm not the first person to do it and I won't be the last. There are single moms and single dads out there raising kids in less than ideal situations but they manage. I hope to manage too and am looking for ideas how to do that. I'm learning a lot here and everyone is helpful and supportive. I am seriously considering rehoming one of the dogs as I think he would make a better working dog than a pet. It's only been 3 days. I'm not going to jump to any decisions until I see how things work out.

The previous brothers we had were received at 6 weeks from a family who would have sent them to the pound. At least these guys are 8 weeks.

My vet is exceptional. He graduated from Cornell and is very highly regarded by other vets in the area. I drive 22 miles to reach him. He diagnosed Tristan's lymphoma very early and immediately referred us to the Animal Medical Center in Manhattan; arguably the finest veterinary hospital in the world. Their oncologists were impressed he caught the symptoms so early and had nothing but praise for the care Tristan received with my vet.

I do praise them when they go outside. I praise as much as I can. I get animated and happy and look like an idiot, but I want them to know it makes me happy to go outside. I'm not just chucking them in a room with a bowl and some newspaper never to let them out like the relative in the basement we don't talk about. We go outside a lot. I take them separately and together. I had to go out twice today. Each time I took a different dog and we went and visited the tire shop and the insurance agency. They see me nearly all day. My desk is 10 feet from their pen area, and my bed a few feet from that. They're not alone at all.
__________________
People may scoff at you, who see not the lightest blade of grass bent by his footfall, who hear no whimper pitched too fine for mere audition, people who may never really have had a dog. Smile at them, for you shall know something that is hidden from them and which is well worth the knowing. - Lord Byron
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-13-2007, 07:01 PM
Doberluv's Avatar
Doberluv Doberluv is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: western Wa
Posts: 21,907
Default

__________________
"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams 1776





"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

Thomas Jefferson
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-13-2007, 07:07 PM
jason_els's Avatar
jason_els jason_els is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Warwick, New York, USA
Posts: 463
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr2little
I just thought that because you work at home you'd be better off, as would your pups, forgoing the extra confusing steps.
It's the lack of nearby services and traffic that makes some things take a while. Our town is full of chic boutiques and no box stores. If you need to buy clothes or electronics or get your car serviced or go to the vet, it's always at least an hour to do what you need and get home, sometimes traffic or inability to find what you need makes it take much longer.

Quote:
I just thought that because you work at home you'd be better off, as would your pups, forgoing the extra confusing steps.
It would but then I wouldn't sleep, work wouldn't get done, I'd be broke, sick, and the dogs would have to be rehomed as I'd lose mine. I don't believe there are people out there crating their dogs and taking them out every 30 minutes or every hour or two or three hours. That's slavery. Like a previous poster said, what do I want to end up doing? Hating my dogs because they've worn me down to nothing?

Quote:
If you must use an interm method, I strong suggest that instead of placing the newspaper directly on the floor, you put it inside of a large (bathmat size) rubbermaid container lid (1-2"high). This way, you can help them to make the distinction between the floor and having to jump into the potty area. This option must be taken away unless you're away for 3 hours or more.
Now that is an idea I can live with. It makes sense! I hear the heavenly cherubim! Thank you! Dobe was right, you're good at this. Are you a trainer? Should I crate train them to use that? They seem to get the idea of the newspaper as the breeder started them on that. Is there someplace that describes how to do it?
__________________
People may scoff at you, who see not the lightest blade of grass bent by his footfall, who hear no whimper pitched too fine for mere audition, people who may never really have had a dog. Smile at them, for you shall know something that is hidden from them and which is well worth the knowing. - Lord Byron
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-13-2007, 07:19 PM
dr2little's Avatar
dr2little dr2little is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,402
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_els View Post
Now that is an idea I can live with. It makes sense! I hear the heavenly cherubim! Thank you! Dobe was right, you're good at this. Are you a trainer? Should I crate train them to use that? They seem to get the idea of the newspaper as the breeder started them on that. Is there someplace that describes how to do it?
All you really have to do is put the paper that you're currently using into the rubbermaid lid and place the lid where you normally placed the paper. You can lift them into it, giving them their verbal potty cue to encourage them to use it. You may even add blotted pee or other accidents onto the paper in the lid to give them the idea.

If they already have the paper down pat, they should catch on fairly quickly.

I always recommend layering the newspaper so that you can keep it clean while still leaving some scent on the lower layers of paper.
__________________


I LOVE my new siggy Baxter'smybaby, THANK YOU SO MUCH....you're the BEST!!!!!!!

http://www.diamondintheruffcalgary.com/
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:45 AM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site