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  #61  
Old 02-24-2007, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by irotas View Post
I was just reading the ingredients and nutrition info for Black Forest Canid Formula and was generally impressed (their ingredient list includes cranberries, blueberries, taurine, and glucosamine), but a few things that trouble me a bit:

1) They use venison as their primary meat source. For humans, eating chicken is much healthier than venison. I'm not sure if this is true for dogs, but possibly there's a difference in dogs for saturated vs unsaturated fat. However, this may be a good thing if your dog is allergic to chicken.

2) Their omega-6 to omega-3 ratio seems quite a bit out of balance (2.71:1). From what I've read online, the ratio should never go below 4:1, because (among other things) of the impact it has on your dogs ability to fight infection.

3) Their percent protein and fat is less than what I've seen in the other high-end foods

4) The cost is exceedingly high. Their website charges $50.56 for a 33 pound bag. That's just ridiculous!
Dogs don't have issues with saturated fats to the extent that we humans do. If you ask me, I think venison is a more natural protein source for a dog than chicken.

With Omega 3 to Omega 6 fatty acid ratios, the lower the better! This explains it: http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=fattyacids

If you are concerned about the protein and fat then why not check out one of their different formulas? The Black Forest is the lowest of them all. I personally think Timberwolf is worth the extra $. They add Taurine and Carnitine which are hard to find in other foods. There Omega ratio is amazing and also a rare find. I feed it to my dogs and am amazed!
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  #62  
Old 02-24-2007, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by showpug View Post
Dogs don't have issues with saturated fats to the extent that we humans do. If you ask me, I think venison is a more natural protein source for a dog than chicken.
This is interesting, and good to know.


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Originally Posted by showpug View Post
With Omega 3 to Omega 6 fatty acid ratios, the lower the better!
Statements like this are dangerous. Excess Omega-3 is unhealthy in dogs just as it is in humans, as I discussed in this thread: http://www.chazhound.com/forums/show...t=46687&page=3

You must aim at finding the right *balance* between Omega-3 and Omega-6. It's true that most diets are heavy on the Omega-6 side, but getting out of balance on the Omega-3 side is also dangerous.


Quote:
Originally Posted by showpug View Post
If you are concerned about the protein and fat then why not check out one of their different formulas? The Black Forest is the lowest of them all.
I looked at the others as well, but they all had their own problems. First of all, none of the others have glucosamine, which (based on what I've read) is essential for any adult dog over 35-40 pounds.

The "Wild & Natural Dry" has a suspiciously high percentage of protein and fat, far higher than any other food I've seen.

Also, the "Nutrient Dense Lamb, Barley and Apples" doesn't contain cranberries, which from what I've read and experienced is very important for lowering pH and preventing urinary tract infections.
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  #63  
Old 02-24-2007, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by irotas View Post
This is interesting, and good to know.




Statements like this are dangerous. Excess Omega-3 is unhealthy in dogs just as it is in humans, as I discussed in this thread: http://www.chazhound.com/forums/show...t=46687&page=3

You must aim at finding the right *balance* between Omega-3 and Omega-6. It's true that most diets are heavy on the Omega-6 side, but getting out of balance on the Omega-3 side is also dangerous.




I looked at the others as well, but they all had their own problems. First of all, none of the others have glucosamine, which (based on what I've read) is essential for any adult dog over 35-40 pounds.

The "Wild & Natural Dry" has a suspiciously high percentage of protein and fat, far higher than any other food I've seen.

Also, the "Nutrient Dense Lamb, Barley and Apples" doesn't contain cranberries, which from what I've read and experienced is very important for lowering pH and preventing urinary tract infections.

So how do you determine what is excessive when it comes to Omega 3's? I always thought it was about the *balance*...not having too much of one or the other and how they work together. Did you read the link I provided about the research that has been done on Omega 3:6 ratios in the canine diet and how ratios below 5:1 may actually be MORE beneficial?

As far as glucosamine in dog food goes - many foods don't contain enough of it to be effective anyway, so why not just supplement?

I feed Wild & Natural to my dogs. I feel a diet with higher protein and fat is essential for carnivores and my dogs thrive on high protein, grain-free diets. Dogs in the wild don't eat carbs all day. They eat a lot of meat with fat!

You may want to look at the Southwest Chicken and Herbs. It has more mainstream protein and fat amounts, a higher Omega 3:6 ration and contains cranberries. You would have to supplement glucosamine however.
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  #64  
Old 02-25-2007, 12:56 AM
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maybe i scanned too quickly, but does anyone have any experience with a canadian brand called "firstmate"? i was only able to quickly scan their ingredients list when i was in the store earlier today..
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  #65  
Old 02-25-2007, 12:59 AM
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i found them online, here is a link to one of their foods:

firstmate hollistic
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  #66  
Old 02-25-2007, 06:43 AM
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no, don't use Beneful, there has been a recall on that food. Any food is better than that one. but, you probably have gotten good information. I haven't read the other two pages yet. lol
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  #67  
Old 02-25-2007, 07:34 AM
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Irotas I am an eagle pack fan. My cats have eaten it for decades. The problem is, Tosca doesn't like it. She eats it grudgingly and I have tried just about every type. I ended up having to mix it with Natural Balance. Finally, I settled on Canadae as a compromise between us.

As I have worked with cats for decades, I am very aware of taurine as it has been known to be absolutely ESSENTIAL to cats for a long time. It's importance to dogs is far more recent. Long story to short, cats cannot synthesize it at all.. but dogs can. It's value to dogs seems to be most important in the case of cardiomyopathy in dogs--as a treatment in larger doses. In the case of cats, it is preventative because of the different way they deal with taurine (or don't deal with it), they require it daily. Both cardiomyopathy and blindness can easily be a result of lack of taurine in a cat's diet DAILY. In the case of dogs, I've seen some studies that suggest it is a needed ingredient in lamb and rice formulas. I do understand why it would make you feel better to have it in the bag but taurine is present naturally in meat and fish. So since dogs can synthesize it, I am not too sure it's necessary in all dog food, but it certainly seems to be necessary as a treatment for cardiomyopathy in dogs. It can reverse it, it seems!

Incidentally, they are studying taurine for humans as a possible useful ingredient for treatment of epilepsy and obesity. Very interesting, taurine is. I'm sure Mordy knows way more about it with respect for dogs. I am going on what I already know about it for cats vs dogs with regard to synthesizing it daily. I lost my beloved first cat to cardiomyopathy decades ago before they realized the importance of taurine as a treatment for cats. I learned about it fast after that...too little, too late.
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  #68  
Old 02-25-2007, 11:59 AM
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TWO's food contain salmon oil, which in itself is a natural glucosamine. If you don't like the ingredients, feed something else you prefer Thats why theres so many foods out there. Just something for everyone, everyone believes something and sticks to it. I don't always agree with everything I read or hear, however , I respect everyones choices.
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  #69  
Old 02-25-2007, 01:13 PM
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I think there is a lot of misinformation about unsaturated fatty acids being thrown around. I worked at a major government laboratory studying the benefits of omega-3 supplementation on cognitive function so I know the results first hand.

Irotas,

Yes, it is possible to supplement TOO much omega-3 fatty acid. However, it is incredible difficult to do so because the overwhelming majority of fatty acids that humans and dogs eat are n-6. In addition to your dog's diet, think about biscuits, treats, and anything else you feed.

If you use specifically sourced salmon oils or whole fish, mercury shouldn't be a concern. In fact, work that was performed in my old laboratory in 2004 has shown that the benefits of eating fish (from the long chain polyunsaturated fatty acids) far outweigh any problems from mercury contamination, etc.
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?cha...526C5C6EB56150

I'm not sure if I understand your claim of hyperactivity. In fact, n-3 supplementation has been used as a complimentary or alternative treatment for ADHD and other attention disorders! I can't imagine that it would cause such issues. (Let me know if you want the full text)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...e74b7b60a713b3

There is one reference suggesting that excessive prenatal consumption of n-3 fatty acids leads to decreased auditory acuity. However, I spoke with Dr. Adams about this when he first presented the work. He is a toxicologist so his fatty acid supplementation paradigm was flawed: anyone that studies fatty acids knows that they should have used a 2 generation deficiency/excess model. They didn't test the n-3 levels in the plasma, brain, or cochlea so it is unknown if the auditory dysfunction was even related to fatty acid levels at all.

Last edited by Herschel; 02-25-2007 at 01:53 PM.
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  #70  
Old 02-25-2007, 03:19 PM
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You're right Boxermom. For example, Irotas is right that Canidae has more concentrated calories and recommends feeding less. But for me it worked just the opposite for Tosca. She is less hungry now and isn't gaining weight. On Natural Balance I was feeding her more daily and she seemed more hungry all the time and was gaining weight. She is more satisfied now even though she eats less. Go figure.
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