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Old 01-18-2007, 06:54 PM
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Default Toy and Miniture Aussie.

I was wondering what are your opinions on the Toy and Miniture Aussie?

Are the Toys ethical? Are they really a breed?

And are the Minitures okay? Are they Ethical and a "real" breed?

Also, do you know of any good breeders in the Northwest or near Canada?

Thanks!
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:17 PM
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I wouldn't go with either. When you selectively breed for only one trait (and it's size!) lots of problems ensue. Mini aussies are often created by mixing with shelties so factor in a narrower face, lots of barking and other sheltie traits. I'm told toys are mixed with POM-- what dog could be more different than an aussie?

I personally don't agree with the ethics of breeding mini and toy aussies. They aren't recognised by ASCA, CKC or AKC. I don't see it as any different than breeding "designer hybrids"- I don't agree with the ethics.
Aussies have enough serious health and temperment problems in being such a new breed and a relatively small gene pool. It's a difficult enough job trying to breed for good temperment, health, structure and workability.

Aussies aren't an easy breed to live with in many respects but size is the LEAST of it. My female aussie is a lovely medium size but a TON of dog. Drive, intensity and energy to burn. I don't recommend aussies to very many people. They generally need to work, they can be reactive or aggressive with other dogs, are naturally bouncy, jumpy and mouthy, are protective-- selectively breeding to make them smaller doesn't get rid of any of that and you might be/will be sacrificing lots of good traits to get that more compact size.
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:21 PM
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I don't believe ANY breed should stray from the standard .
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:23 PM
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Oh BTW, I am NOT getting an Aussie This is for a friend

Thanks!

But I do think that Lizzie may have some Mini Aussie in her, maybe a BC/Aissue mix
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:29 PM
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In my opinion this is no more a breed than a goldendoodle. Designer dogs are not my choice.
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:39 PM
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I have one question...

What is the difference between wanting a Miniature Australian Shepherd and wanting a Miniature Poodle?

What if a breeder were to Health test their dogs, show them successsfully, and work with them?

I don't understand what the big difference is between poodles/schnauzers and all the like with different sizes. No one seems against them...?

~Tucker
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:41 PM
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It's okay Lizmo, you can say It's me who's wanting one .

They do have a standard and can be shown for conformation, unlike the goldendoodle.

~Tucker
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Tucker&Me~ View Post
It's okay Lizmo, you can say It's me who's wanting one .

They do have a standard and can be shown for conformation, unlike the goldendoodle.

~Tucker

Oh I wasn't worried about that

I agree with you, I don't understand the difference between the Mini Poodle and Mini Aussie?
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Old 01-18-2007, 08:17 PM
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The ASCA has a very firm policy on Mini and Toy Aussies:

Quote:
"The Miniature Australian Shepherd, North American Shepherd, North
American Miniature Australian Shepherd, and/or Toy Australian
Shepherd breeds are not recognized as a variety of Australian
Shepherd by ASCA. The club considers such dogs to be a distinct and
separate breed and will not accept them into its registry.

"Our bylaws state that ASCA's purpose is: 'To encourage members and
breeders to accept one breed standard for the Australian Shepherd as
approved by the Club as the only standard of excellence by which
Australian Shepherds shall be judged.' It is the mission of this club
and the mission of its members to preserve the breed rather than
change it."

Comment: The club wishes to respond to the breeders of small and tiny
dogs resembling Australian Shepherds who claim they are producing a
size variety. The Aussie was never intended to be selected for size:
it was developed to be a functional working dog capable of handling
tough stock and going for miles in the back country or snow drifts.
Changing the appearance of the breed to personal aesthetic tastes
rather than suitability for work does not fulfill ASCA's mission
statement: "to preserve the Australian Shepherd as an intelligent
working dog of strong herding and guardian instincts."
There are some "minis" that are just under the allowed minimum height requirements, the females can end up being quite small. However, I don't think it's all that ethical to breed for size alone, as someone else said on here, we don't breed in a vaccum. You start selecting for one specific trait and ignore others...and you end up with problems. Minis do have their own breed club, MASCA, and to read their statement it would seem that all their dogs are only an inch or two under standard. It's those that take "mini" and think "size of a mini Schnauzer" that are troublesome.

Toy "Aussies" just make me laugh. There is nothing Aussie about them. They shiver, shake, yip and basically are nothing more than Poms with docked tails. Others look like very skittery, very fragile shelties. I've not yet met a good toy.
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Old 01-18-2007, 08:26 PM
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Some fundamental understanding of aussies (the breed history, it's genesis and what's going on with it currently) but mostly of genetics and breeding is necessary to understand why this a bad idea for this breed.
We went through this a few months ago- you might want to dog up that thread.
Health testing can not undo the damamge done by selectively breeding for size only. Certainly conformation showing can't help that. Even focusing just on conformation that DOES conform to the breed standard has led to the destruction of many breeds-- add to that when you are only breeding severley undersised dogs. Do you think that will add to the health and temperments and workability of this breed? You're basically breeding runts to runts to runts for sveral generations, factor in some more inbreeding to "solidify a type" and maybe adding in some other breeds, --not the recipe for a great dog.

It's widely acknowledged amongst aussie people /aussie breeders that's to be impossible to find a "clean line" of aussies to breed as it is. I can't see how it's possible to do a good job of breeding only very undersized dogs. As I mentioned aussies are a relatively young breed and a small gene pool with plenty of health problems --not the kind of things that can be tested for either ie seizures, eye problems and unstable temperments. Limiting the pool further only spells disaster for the breed.

Not to mention the obvious question-- aussies are HERDING dogs, bred to be an all around farm dog, able to herd sheep and cattle, designed to have brains to control livestock. WHY would that come in TOY or mini size?

The only registry registering minis is a registry put together for the purpose of legimizing hybrids, miniturized and so-called breeds that other registries won't. The AKC will do just about anything to make a buck. If even they won't register mini aussies, that should be a pretty good indication that there's a problem.

As for the comparison with toy poodles, that's not a breed I'm particularly familiar with, nor particularly fond of so I won't speak to that point. I don't think the fact that some other breeds come in more than one size is enough of an argument for creating mini or toy aussies.

If you want a small, cute, smart herding dog that may or may not be able to herd but is athletic, comes is a variety of pretty colors and is less drivey and high maintenance than an aussie, why not consider a sheltie?
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