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  #41  
Old 01-15-2007, 08:41 AM
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Romy Romy is offline
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If judges did not reward poorly bred dogs with grand champion titles, people would not do it.

On a somewhat related note, why on earth the did AKC make brindle boston bull terriers a disqualifying color? There have been brindle bostons forever, and breeding black and whites to black and whites tends to create deaf animals. Personally, I prefer the brindle ones when they can be found.
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  #42  
Old 01-15-2007, 10:31 AM
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Dont'f forget, BREED CLUBS are ahead of AKC. They have ahold of the standards before the kennel clubs do.
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  #43  
Old 01-15-2007, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by chinchow View Post
Dont'f forget, BREED CLUBS are ahead of AKC. They have ahold of the standards before the kennel clubs do.
Agreed.
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  #44  
Old 01-15-2007, 06:25 PM
Psyfalcon Psyfalcon is offline
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But the AKC appoints the judges for the all breed shows.

It goes in circles really. If I entered a German line dog in Westminister, they would chase me out of the ring, yet those dogs are arguably closer to the American standard than our own GSDs. Field line setters? You couldn't get in the door. (I know of little beyond GSDs and sporting dogs when it comes to showing)

The breeders keep breeding more angular dogs, or for more feathering and size and the judges keep rewarding it.

Whats easier to fix? Tell ALL the breeders to reverse their last 20 years of work and bring only "classic" looking dogs, or start replacing judges who keep selecting the most over done individuals. Even if they just chose the medium range of American show dogs, GSDs and Setters would slowly start coming back from their extremes.
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  #45  
Old 01-15-2007, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romy View Post
If judges did not reward poorly bred dogs with grand champion titles, people would not do it.

On a somewhat related note, why on earth the did AKC make brindle boston bull terriers a disqualifying color? There have been brindle bostons forever, and breeding black and whites to black and whites tends to create deaf animals. Personally, I prefer the brindle ones when they can be found.
Actually, I think brindles are allowed as long as they have the required white markings.

Quote:
Color and Markings
Brindle, seal, or black with white markings. Brindle is preferred ONLY if all other qualities are equal. (Note: SEAL DEFINED. Seal appears black except it has a red cast when viewed in the sun or bright light.) Disqualify: Solid black, solid brindle or solid seal without required white markings. Gray or liver colors.

Required Markings: White muzzle band, white blaze between the eyes, white forechest.

Desired Markings: White muzzle band, even white blaze between the eyes and over the head, white collar, white forechest, white on part or whole of forelegs and hind legs below the hocks. (Note: A representative specimen should not be penalized for not possessing "Desired Markings."

A dog with a preponderance of white on the head or body must possess sufficient merit otherwise to counteract its deficiencies.
http://www.akc.org/breeds/boston_terrier/index.cfm

I also am a fan of the brindles, but they are hard to come by.
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  #46  
Old 01-17-2007, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Whats easier to fix? Tell ALL the breeders to reverse their last 20 years of work and bring only "classic" looking dogs, or start replacing judges who keep selecting the most over done individuals. Even if they just chose the medium range of American show dogs, GSDs and Setters would slowly start coming back from their extremes.
I've always been a supporter of a system in which breeds/assignments/licenses can be taken away from judges for poor judging, like the judge who put up a special for Best of Breed literally without ever having put his hands on the dog (he brought the BOB class in - 3 specials dogs, 1 specials bitch, the Winners Dog, and the Winners Bitch - looked at their heads/fronts and profiles, took them around the ring 1.5 times... and then pointed to quite possible the worst special in the ring for Best of Breed - who happened to have a well known handler on him) or the judge who - and I kid you not - put up a ONE EYED class dog for Winners Dog and BEST OF BREED over some nice specials (at least one was a BIS winner)... that dog later had the breed win stripped from him.

"Mistakes" like that are inexcusable.

However - I do not like the idea of starting to remove breeds simply because a judge who is "selecting the most ___ individuals". Standards are purposely left somewhat open for interpretation - that means that your idea of overdone is not going to be the same as the next breeder, owner, or handler... so I don't think its appropriate to start removing judges simply because they are putting up dogs that you, personally, don't like.
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  #47  
Old 01-17-2007, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schurpug View Post
I've always been a supporter of a system in which breeds/assignments/licenses can be taken away from judges for poor judging, like the judge who put up a special for Best of Breed literally without ever having put his hands on the dog (he brought the BOB class in - 3 specials dogs, 1 specials bitch, the Winners Dog, and the Winners Bitch - looked at their heads/fronts and profiles, took them around the ring 1.5 times... and then pointed to quite possible the worst special in the ring for Best of Breed - who happened to have a well known handler on him) or the judge who - and I kid you not - put up a ONE EYED class dog for Winners Dog and BEST OF BREED over some nice specials (at least one was a BIS winner)... that dog later had the breed win stripped from him.

"Mistakes" like that are inexcusable.

However - I do not like the idea of starting to remove breeds simply because a judge who is "selecting the most ___ individuals". Standards are purposely left somewhat open for interpretation - that means that your idea of overdone is not going to be the same as the next breeder, owner, or handler... so I don't think its appropriate to start removing judges simply because they are putting up dogs that you, personally, don't like.
We know the notorious one eyed pug all too well. lol!
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  #48  
Old 01-17-2007, 01:33 AM
Psyfalcon Psyfalcon is offline
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Now this might be getting a bit off topic and onto intent and history vs show dogs, but to illustrate my point...

English Setter Standard on Coat:

Flat without curl or wooliness. Feathering on ears, chest, abdomen, underside of thighs, back of all legs and on the tail of good length but not so excessive as to hide true lines and movement or to affect the dog's appearance or function as a sporting dog.

A Champion Setter


Compare that to field line setters who can still do their job, or to historical setter paintings. That much fur ruins function unless you get the scissors out.
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  #49  
Old 01-17-2007, 08:50 AM
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It's no secret the 99.9% of the so called "working" dogs that are shown in the AKC couldn't do their job if their life depended on it. Compare all the true working dogs to their show dog version & the differences can't be ingored. Even the greyound is just an empty shell of it's true racing brother.
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  #50  
Old 01-17-2007, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miakoda View Post
It's no secret the 99.9% of the so called "working" dogs that are shown in the AKC couldn't do their job if their life depended on it. Compare all the true working dogs to their show dog version & the differences can't be ingored. Even the greyound is just an empty shell of it's true racing brother.
I have a friend that shows Deerhounds in AKC conformation and those very same dogs are VERY successful with lure coursing. I think to say that 99.9% of the dogs is way too general of a statement! I think you would be surprised at the number of fanciers that actually do care about the total package.
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