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  #11  
Old 11-07-2006, 03:22 PM
Vivien Vivien is offline
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Well don't people show for many reason..one would be to qualify the dog as breedworthy. If it's a dog that is breedworthy it needs everything
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  #12  
Old 11-07-2006, 03:23 PM
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Well, the coat and bite do matter in a lot of breeds- just as much as soundness etc etc. Luckily I have a breed that still performs it's original task very readily. Paps still make great companions!

A dog is shown to be evaluated against the standard. You want to know that your dog conforms to the standard before you breed it. Some show dogs aren't bred and just because a dog is a show winner doesn't mean that dog should be bred. A 'Ch' title isn't a certificate saying this dog is acceptable to breed.
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  #13  
Old 11-07-2006, 03:54 PM
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Laurelin, your Pap is gorgeous. Magnificent coat on that boy.

In my breed, coat doesn't matter at all. As long as the dog HAS hair, it'll do. Same goes for coat color, eye color, markings etc. Bite, on the other hand, IS important. A dog needs to have a healthy bite in order to do most kinds of work. Soundness is the most important thing in Borders, because they do have a job to do and must be physically fit to handle it. With breeds like Paps (and I'm not just picking on Paps, I have one and he's a blast) it's just a beauty contest.

If a Border Collie is able to put in a full days' work, at least several times a week, without being in pain or having any physical difficulties, its structure is obviously good. Now, would any dog that can work be good in the ring? Nooooo friggin way. The ring is very partial to heavily coated roughs, tipped ears, full blazes on the face, full white collars, thick jaws, etc. I was told at a show recently that my boy didn't have enough coat to impress most judges. Ack!! He's a hairy beast.

Pawz, the AKC standard hasn't ruined ANY breeds. It's the breeders who breed towards showring fads that ruin breeds. It's the breeders that pay no mind to the fact that the conformation standard is only ONE aspect of breeding to keep in mind. I am not going to breed a splay-footed, cow-hocked, over-angulated dog because that dog wouldn't last one minute herding. A dog that truly conforms to the standard will have ideal structure as a working dog, but if the working ability is ignored in favor of that ideal structure, then what good is it? Breeders need to focus on the entire picture. I just don't like seeing some writing on paper blamed for the actions of indiscriminate breeders.

As for american lines, I actually prefer the american-bred show type Borders to the ones from Europe and Australia (though I did see a very nice Japanese bitch over the weekend) I especially don't like what the Australian breeders have done to the BC (turned it into a different breed entirely!) and I'm willing to bet most American show-bred Borders have Australian lines behind them.

But I digress. I guess I don't see the point of showing a s/neutered dog, though. It's very expensive and your dog gets very little out of it besides a title. Most pet owners don't really care about titles, IME. s/n dogs can compete in matches, though.
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  #14  
Old 11-07-2006, 04:36 PM
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Pawz, the AKC standard hasn't ruined ANY breeds. It's the breeders who breed towards showring fads that ruin breeds. It's the breeders that pay no mind to the fact that the conformation standard is only ONE aspect of breeding to keep in mind. I am not going to breed a splay-footed, cow-hocked, over-angulated dog because that dog wouldn't last one minute herding. A dog that truly conforms to the standard will have ideal structure as a working dog, but if the working ability is ignored in favor of that ideal structure, then what good is it? Breeders need to focus on the entire picture. I just don't like seeing some writing on paper blamed for the actions of indiscriminate breeders.

I think they AKC has just as much to do with it as the breeders. THere are lots of politics in the AKC, lots of judges and breeders scratching each others backs. The AKC provides the standard, but yet there are dogs that are put in winning positions that aren't even close to the standard. They do chose the judges, they also have a part in training the judges, they let lots of things slide in the name of money. They provide the vunue for lots of these things to happen. The AKC is much much much more in the dog world than a piece of paper with words written on it.

There's a reason there is a split in every breed with popularity in the AKC and the rest of the world. JRT's, GSD's, BC's etc. and its not like the AKC's hands are clean in this, not clean at all.
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  #15  
Old 11-07-2006, 04:41 PM
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It's to judge all parts of the "ideal" of a breed. Without testicles you are not judging all parts.
you can have chemical castration, without removing the little love sacks.
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  #16  
Old 11-07-2006, 05:05 PM
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Showing is a way to evaluate if your dog is breed worthy
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  #17  
Old 11-07-2006, 05:50 PM
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The whole purpose behind the conformation show ring is to compete with your BREEDING STOCK against other people's breeding stock. There would be no purpose in showing spayed or neutered dogs in conformation! If a dog is "shooting blanks" or has a health problem requiring it be neutered then it is not a sound animal and should not be in the conformation show ring.

It is true that a lot of dogs are collected to be bred via artificial insemination, but people generally don't collect their dogs until the dog has finished it's championship which is earned IN THE SHOW RING. Keep in mind that if you collect a dog and then neuter him that is your only supply. It has to be stored as frozen semen which is more difficult to use and have success with. If he is left intact, he can breed naturally or you can ship fresh chilled and still have the long term option of frozen. Neutering him early on takes away a lot of options.

Many retired show dogs are neutered and they are still allowed to be shown in the veteran class.
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  #18  
Old 11-07-2006, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by showpug View Post
The whole purpose behind the conformation show ring is to compete with your BREEDING STOCK against other people's breeding stock. There would be no purpose in showing spayed or neutered dogs in conformation! If a dog is "shooting blanks" or has a health problem requiring it be neutered then it is not a sound animal and should not be in the conformation show ring.

It is true that a lot of dogs are collected to be bred via artificial insemination, but people generally don't collect their dogs until the dog has finished it's championship which is earned IN THE SHOW RING. Many retired show dogs are neutered and they are still allowed to be shown in the veteran class.
^^You beat me to it^^ Ditto!!
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  #19  
Old 11-07-2006, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by whatszmatter View Post
I think they AKC has just as much to do with it as the breeders. THere are lots of politics in the AKC, lots of judges and breeders scratching each others backs. The AKC provides the standard, but yet there are dogs that are put in winning positions that aren't even close to the standard. They do chose the judges, they also have a part in training the judges, they let lots of things slide in the name of money. They provide the vunue for lots of these things to happen. The AKC is much much much more in the dog world than a piece of paper with words written on it.

There's a reason there is a split in every breed with popularity in the AKC and the rest of the world. JRT's, GSD's, BC's etc. and its not like the AKC's hands are clean in this, not clean at all.
Actually Whatz, I was not talking about the AKC itself. I don't like the registry one bit - they're a bunch of money-hungry maniacs if you ask me.

I was talking about the standard itself. The guidelines for the structure of the breed. There isn't much wrong with that. I do think that some of the standard is extremely superficial, but much of it is practical.
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  #20  
Old 11-08-2006, 08:39 AM
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Actually Whatz, I was not talking about the AKC itself. I don't like the registry one bit - they're a bunch of money-hungry maniacs if you ask me.

I was talking about the standard itself. The guidelines for the structure of the breed. There isn't much wrong with that. I do think that some of the standard is extremely superficial, but much of it is practical.
I see where you're coming from, and I agree.
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