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  #41  
Old 11-02-2006, 12:27 PM
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I've seen dogs who did show discomfort
Why? What materials were used? What kind of positive reinforcement was used? There is no reason for this to be miserable to any dog. I belong to a Doberman board with many experienced Dobe owners, some breeders, some who have had Dobes for 35 years or more. We've had these discussions, of course....people asking questions or needing help with posting. And what I have gathered from the vast majority of these Doberman people (and there are a lot) is just how I described my experience with my Doberman....many of them sleeping right through it, playing as usual, no discomfort at all. The only times it was not pleasant were the few times where Lyric didn't feel like holding still and wanted to go play or something was distracting him, like another dog. Then it was disappointing to him to have to hold still for the 2 minutes per ear that it took for me to post him up. LOL. But that's the same thing as when I have to do nails. "Gosh, do I have to?" It's no more uncomfortable than having to sit still and get their nails clipped or Dremelled. I think a lot of people make it more complicated than it needs to be by using poor choices of materials (too sticky tape, hard things in the ears, doing a sloppy, loose job) and their own attitude being passed onto the dog..."this is sooooooo horrible to do." Projecting human, complicated stuff onto the dogs.
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  #42  
Old 11-02-2006, 12:34 PM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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The discomfort was shown by shaking their head repeatedly, pawing at their ears and generally sulking. I doubt the dogs were in PAIN, but they were bothered by it none the less. In terms of positive rienforcement, the standard 'associate this with something good' procedure was done.

I just don't personaly see a good reason to do it. Even if every dog had zero problems with it, I still wouldn't want to see it done. Plus, I prefer the look of an uncropped dog.
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  #43  
Old 11-02-2006, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
I appologize. Because your post came right after mine asking about why a Chi's ears would need cropping, I mistakenly associated with that context. I sure would never trash your grandfather or anyone way back in those days for doing what they needed to do when there probably weren't a bunch of veterinarians around. It was probably one of those newer professions just coming about. You're right about education though. That's for sure. Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't want you to think that I thought ill of or disrespect for your grandfather.
No need to apologize. After I saw your post I reread mine and completely understood why you thought that. Again, I'm sorry for that.
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  #44  
Old 11-02-2006, 01:37 PM
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No problem Mamasobuco. I feel kind of stupid. Sometimes I'm just a little jumpy. LOL.

Well, Silverpaws, you're right. It's not better than not doing anything to their ears. But it's certainly not the abuse that people make it out to be and most people prefer the cropped Doberman, in this country anyhow.

There are purposes or functions for it, albeit not hugely important, I guess. I know my dogs never get ear ifections from yeast like my Lab did and some of my floppy earred mixes. She had yeast over growth almost constantly and was regularily on Ottomax. My GSDs, my Chi's and my Dobe have never once had an infeciton. My Lab went deaf and she wasn't even all that old yet. I wonder if those infections had something to do with it. There is something about the air circulation, something about the cone of hearing with upright ears. The pinpointing of direction is much more accurate and hearing in general more keen with upright ears. This has been studied and demonstrated. For a dog who is bred for protection, this is no small attribute. It's easier to see which exact direction my dog is alerting to. It plays a role in his job.

And yes, I'll admit, I do love the look of an alert, tight fitting Doberman and cropped ears and a docked tail adds to this look...no appendages sticking out for anyone to grab or hurt or to interfer with the dog's job. If I got a rescue who didn't have cropped ears, I'd love it just as much and he'd still be a Doberman. But when given the choice with a puppy, I'd go for the cropped. Actually reputable breeders in this country at any rate always crop their ears. There is no choice in the majority of cases. They want their dogs to represent the breed in the traditional way, I guess.

But it is personal preferrence as far as how one likes them to look or function. And it should remain personal choice because it is not abuse. People really should get off of this and if they're so concerned about animal welfare, they should do something to help animals in real trouble. There are a lot more of those in this world.
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  #45  
Old 11-02-2006, 04:52 PM
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Here, Here Carrie!!!! I don''t understand how people can''t see and understand the true function of a good crop. I mean I totally understand and respect not wanting to get it done in one''s own dog but one should first at least thoroughly examine the benefits of a good crop (and dock for that matter) including discussing with a good reputable vet along with the breeder the procedure, after care and rate of recovery and how it seems to effect the puppies before making a final conclusion about the whole cropping issue. They may be surprised what they would learn!!! I myself have been converted from "I agree with it so long as it is done by someone reputable, but it is not for me" to "Yes I agree with it so long as it is done by someone reputable and all my dogs who should be cropped will be!" thanks to simply taking the time to educate myself and talking to those with cropped and uncropped dogs and comparing them to eachother.
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  #46  
Old 11-02-2006, 05:26 PM
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IMO, there are no health benefits and it's a procedure done based on human emotion, and that's it. A dogs' ears should be left as nature intended.I'm glad more and more vets are refusing to do croppings, and quite happy the ones I work for don't agree with it either.
Sorry, flame me all you want, but I personally think it's a VERY selfish human decision. PERIOD!!!
and happily, that thread on Game-Dogs was closed.
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  #47  
Old 11-02-2006, 05:27 PM
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I don't crop. I cropped my first dane, and cried about it as soon as I picked him up from the vet. His tender pink ears were cut, red, and angry looking. He cried when I touched his head because he was afraid I would hurt them. I had to keep him away from the other dogs because he would yelp if they came near him because he was afraid they'd bump him. He ran from me when it was taping time. Finally, after a few months, I just said forget it. His ears never stood, but I don't care, I just hate that I did it.

Now, I'm not judging people that DO crop. What irks me though is that people claim it's for health reasons (I'm talking about pets....a dog that works is obviously a different can of beans). Dane folks will argue pro cropping all day based on "they might get ear infections or hematomas if they're not cropped". If that's the case, then why aren't bassets and cockers cropped? Those breeds take the cake for infections. And I've seen more German Shepherds with hematomas than I have uncropped danes. If you like the look of cropped ears, that's fine, just say it.

My other reason for not cropping any more is this:



That head is gorgeous just the way it is. And I love those soft flappy ears!

Now on to the subject of cropping at home - some breeders have veterinarians come to their home to crop puppies. It saves the puppies from being exposed to viruses at the hospital. But again, this is a veterinarian...not some dude with a litter of pups and a pair of scissors. That's just wrong.
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  #48  
Old 11-02-2006, 08:28 PM
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To Shadowfacedanes, that is one awesome looking great dane. Just adorable. Honestly, did not think there would be such a time on the forum for this post. Thanks to all who posted.
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  #49  
Old 11-03-2006, 10:37 AM
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Breeds that need it like bassest etc ears are to vascular to do it safely or they probally would. Instead when those dogs are prone to them they do things like tie there ears up for so long per day or with cockers remove the inner ear so the dog is deaf but no longer suffers from ear infections. I'll never forget the basset across the street running around all day with his ears tied up on his head

Danes are one breed I probally would not crop but only because it seems to take sooo long for there ears to stand and I see so many that never do stand even when the owners put all there effort into it.My moms friend bred when I was younger and she kept them till they began to show so she would be doing ears on like eight pups and thats all she ever did when I was over there. byrons ears were a snap compared to that.

I also consider all of my dogs working dogs. if they didn't have a job I woudln't have gotten them. they may not do exactly what they were bred for but running around on a bunch of farms isn't safe for any loose appendages. My husky had her tail broke as a pup and she is seven now and I still cna not touch her tail. All of her is pretty and brushed but her big ratty tail
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  #50  
Old 11-03-2006, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowfacedanes View Post
I don't crop. I cropped my first dane, and cried about it as soon as I picked him up from the vet. His tender pink ears were cut, red, and angry looking. He cried when I touched his head because he was afraid I would hurt them. I had to keep him away from the other dogs because he would yelp if they came near him because he was afraid they'd bump him. He ran from me when it was taping time. Finally, after a few months, I just said forget it. His ears never stood, but I don't care, I just hate that I did it.

Now, I'm not judging people that DO crop. What irks me though is that people claim it's for health reasons (I'm talking about pets....a dog that works is obviously a different can of beans). Dane folks will argue pro cropping all day based on "they might get ear infections or hematomas if they're not cropped". If that's the case, then why aren't bassets and cockers cropped? Those breeds take the cake for infections. And I've seen more German Shepherds with hematomas than I have uncropped danes. If you like the look of cropped ears, that's fine, just say it.

My other reason for not cropping any more is this:



That head is gorgeous just the way it is. And I love those soft flappy ears!

Now on to the subject of cropping at home - some breeders have veterinarians come to their home to crop puppies. It saves the puppies from being exposed to viruses at the hospital. But again, this is a veterinarian...not some dude with a litter of pups and a pair of scissors. That's just wrong.
smooches for each of those gorgous ears!!!!!!!!!! They are just devine.

I still want to do my ears montage to the tune of HAIR i just don't know how. I had my ear pierced when the kids were little up in the cartiledge. That lasts all of one afternoon before i said this is insane, it hurts and what in the world was i thinking. I took it out, and it is still tender in that spot a decade later. I can't see cartlidge being cut in an animal any different. Besides looking at cropped ears makes my stomach queesy (sp?).
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