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  #11  
Old 10-15-2006, 05:48 PM
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Dunno. But I do just talk to mine. Just like I would to another human being - well, not quite. I expect my dogs to be quicker to understand me than most people I run into It's very rewarding when they work and play in sync with you, often anticipating what you want, even if it's something out of the ordinary. Maybe I take it too much for granted. Its just the way I've always related to my animals
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  #12  
Old 10-15-2006, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
Your body language is a predictor to her of an unfavorable response from you which she is responding to appeasingly. This has nothing to do with her remembering what occured 8 hours ago or connecting what she did (eating the rabbit) with your displeasure. ... Reward or punishment needs to come within about 3 seconds. Dogs live in the present. They do not have the ability to move forward and backward through time.
Oh dear Doberluv... It's fine to speculate from a distance and thanks for your thoughts, but I have to tell you that you are largely incorrect in this case. I was 'joking' with her and she responded accordingly. I was not angry and she was not remotely afraid of me (then or ever). Yes, body language was a relevant component of the overall communicative exchange. However, she would NEVER normally behave that way at all (because she was feisty and independent - far from humble) and nevermind in response to such a common, everyday human gesture. (If dogs ordinarily responded that way they'd be leaping around all day long responding to every snippet of human gesticulation, just in case it was about them.)

But even if you were wholly right, such a precise and appropriate one-off response, based on nothing more than subtle variations in body language by a different species, then becomes an even more remarkable act of insight (which many humans I know couldn't pull off!).

From what I've read of your views I'm sure that I won't be able to 'explain' this story to you in a way which will satisfy you; I just "know" what happened, so we will likely have to agree to disagree. There is no doubt in my mind that dogs are vastly more perceptive and intelligent than you personally give them credit for. The concept that they are mere '3 second reflex idiots' is contradicted both by formal research and by the long heritage of everyday experience by millions of dog owners.

(Remember as well that "time" is a human conceptual construct which does not exist in 'reality'. We are not actually moving 'forward' or 'backward' in it. Things aint that simple...but anyoldwho...)

Del.
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  #13  
Old 10-15-2006, 07:51 PM
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Point taken. I wasn't there. I was going by words on the page and how I interpretted or misinterpretted them.

I do not believe that dogs have the same kind of knowlege or our sense about right and wrong and don't know way after the fact that what they did a long time ago is what their owner is referrencing or gesturing about. I do think dogs, to some extent share in a sense of humor of sorts. At least they're very playful and seem to enjoy certain antics and enjoy our laughter and silliness too. The two of us, the two species are both rather paedomorphs. If your gestures brought on a reaction from her which she previously had been reinforced for....more fun, silliness, games, laughing (stuff dogs like) then that too could explain her body language, her perhaps "mock" appeasement, something dogs do in play anyhow.

From my understanding of behavior, I have come to the shared belief of many behavioral scientists that dogs are not as complex as they are often made out to be (as in Disney's Lassie...that really did a number on peoples' misguided perception of dogs) and in some cases more complex than sometimes thought. However, understanding our morals our value system and drawing a conclusion about right or wrong how we perceive it.....No.

We do have a conept called time. (this is not the point whether time is a human concept) The point is that we understand and remember and connect things which happened some time ago (some time ago being the way our brains own this concept). We apply things, life experiences consciously to our future. We muse about the future. Dogs, it is thought and demonstrated by science do not.

I'm sorry if my take on the fact that dogs don't feel guilty hours after the fact or even understand what you meant at that time was not what you meant or wanted to hear. I'll shut up from here on with this thread...but not on every thread mind you.
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  #14  
Old 10-15-2006, 08:13 PM
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I love reading your opinions Doberluv...which is why I asked you specifically

I totally agree with you. Luckily Katie always associates us coming home with LOTS of luvins and attention. Its the highlight of our day coming home and having her SOOO excited to see us. I will say I believe that dogs can miss you while your gone, b/c shes spastic when we come home. (or maybe shes just spastic b/c of the fuss we make over her when we get home)

Do you think dogs have a sense of time? Every day at the appropiate time, Katie will go to the front door to wait for Aaron to come home. Even on Sunday when he gets off at 3 about 4 o'clock Katie goes to the front door to keep an eye out.
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  #15  
Old 10-15-2006, 08:45 PM
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Thanks Doberluv... All interesting and nice to chat with someone with obvious smarts and deep curiosity, even if we currently disagree on a couple of aspects. (...snuck in that little "the fact that..." ...thought I wouldn't notice...? Naughty!)

Moxie, dogs have an 'internal clock' like humans and most animals, which can be surprisingly accurate. However, dogs (and humans and other animals to varying degrees) also have a capacity for 'perception at a distance' - the concept of knowing when the owner makes the decision to come home. As a challenge to the mainstream / old school / reductionist / 'suck all the fun out of things' views(!), you might enjoy reading books by the scientist/biologist Rupert Sheldrake, who has studied these things formally and extensively in various animals. It's fascinating and quite uplifting.

Del.
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  #16  
Old 10-15-2006, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
(...snuck in that little "the fact that..." ...thought I wouldn't notice...? Naughty!)
ROFLOL!

Oh! I have to get those books. I love stuff like that. Yes, its amazing. Not only my dogs know when its meal time and show it, but my horses would come up to the barn at exactly 4:00p.m. (feeding time in winter) and about 6:00 in summer (unless I was riding) They just knew. In the am, they didn't know exactly when they'd eat because it varied a little more. But when I woke up and started milling around in the kitchen, making coffee (the arena and barn were right out back and close to the house) they'd start nickering and standing directly across from the big kitchen window and stare at me. LOL. What a kick.

It is so fascinating how so many dogs know ahead of time when their owners are coming home, even when its not regular. Now that is a curious phenomenon.

Oh Moxie! There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that they miss us when we're gone. They are so bonded to us and sociable. They get lonely and depressed and have are richly endowed with emotions.

Well, glad we cleared up all that. LOL. Sometimes, not only do we all have different ideas and opions, but sometimes we have similar or even exactly the same opinions but we can't read and write on the Internet. At least it appears I can't. I get so many things messed up.
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  #17  
Old 10-16-2006, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
Yes, they do read our subtle signs. But they also have their own individual personalities too just like we do. Some people are more nervous by nature than others or more exciteable. Its probably a little of everything.
Yes you are right! It all depends on the situation. I know my self I can get hyper and excitable at times. Just like tonight, I could have eat my husband up for dinner. He can for some reason crawl under my skin, and it is not a good feeling. So yeah if a human can rub another human the wrong way, what do we do to our animals? When we are out of contex and or proper deminor?

I can say this my mentor trainer always instructed us not to ever train when we are angry and or upset. That it just causes the dog confusion, and you can lose everything you taught the dog. With in seconds. Why? When we are angry or upset we may take it out on the dogs, by not realising it.

I know for fact if this were the case for me, I would not even acknowlege or do anything with any of the dogs here. I, personally would not want to do anything out of the ordinary and take it out on my beloved dog. This is a wonderful topic, and I beleive that we all can learn from this subject. Especially me. It just takes someone to take the time and explain it in a clear and understandable fashion. Thanx Doberluv
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  #18  
Old 10-16-2006, 11:31 AM
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Yes, and sometimes even if we don't take it out on the dogs, our being upset can make them uneasy and wonder what's wrong. Something terrible is about, but what. Of course, that's life and I think our dogs are very adaptable to a lot of our weirdness. But absolutely.....when training, its a huge mitake to even do anything when you're in a lousy mood. I too, skip it all together if I'm not up for it. And too, if I sense the dog is not into it at all, I'll just put it off till another time. Training needs to be fun and if its not, it won't work.
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  #19  
Old 10-16-2006, 11:58 AM
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Doberluv: On e quick question for you? I have this little female pup. Boy she is a handful, which is good. Now the only serious problem I have with her, and it is intense at that for a 3 month old pup.

Ckicki ( Chikeria) is seriously dog aggressive. A very strong aggression. So this is the areas I am working on her:

1) Not feed her with the others, she is food aggressive
2) When I see her aggression and or attitude I walk up calmly and say Chicki NO. I then take the time to devert her attention on something else.
3) Never leave her and the other pups together unattended.
4) I do not put any type of collars on the pups at this age, and refuse to put a choke collar on her or any type of harsh collar. So what would you suggest, as far as a collar?

Now I have had a load of dogs in my day, and all well bred and trained. I just personally have not seen a young 12 week old pup to be as intense as she is in a dog fight. I have seen an arguement a tuffle but not a fight to want to hurt another dog as Chicki has done already and shown. She is so intense that she does not want to let go. And when she does she struts around and says LOOK at me.

I know that I will not approach any areas as to promoting aggression such as tug work or rag work. I know that she wants to work and will work on spacific areas such as ob retreive drive, and some puppy tracking. I do not want to bring out any further aggressive behaviors at this point in the game. Chikera is a tough girl and can go a long way. Just want to do right by her.

So yeah if you have any advise I would appreciate it.
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  #20  
Old 10-16-2006, 12:19 PM
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Why don't I get the mod for this particular forum to move this one post to the behavior forum. We can't make duplicates. I think you'll get more responses that way. How much dog to dog socializing has she had? What breed is she? Have you started her in an obedience group class? I think I'd try to talk with a trainer. And one who is up to date with training methods which use the science of learning, one who has a very good reputation and it would be nice to find one affiliated with APDT, but that does not guarantee a good trainer. Ask around. Dr2little belongs and she may be able to steer you right. At any rate, some kind of desensatization process will probably be needed. Its a rather long process and takes a lot of work. But punishing aggression, saying "no" to a growling dog is not advisable. You end up supressing the behavior but it back fires often later on and in a big way. This needs to be worked through systematically. Over the Internet, without seeing exactly what is transpiring, it is difficult to give very accurate advice.
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