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  #11  
Old 10-10-2006, 02:18 AM
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jess2416 jess2416 is offline
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Here we go.....

Not trying to pick but Cindr I hope that you noticed what I bolded of hers before you wrote that part that I quoted of you...

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Originally Posted by cindr View Post
As a avid dog lover breeder and trainer; I can state to you that your comments are unjust, simple minded and uncalled for. If you had taken the time to truly read all and any of these posts the members here are concerned for the betterment of the dog.


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Having spent quite some time lately reading the various dog boards, I find myself disturbed by some of the rigid thinking and rude comment from certain individuals on the subject of the ancient and continued art of mixing breeds. I do understand the motivation, but the thinking seems to be quite distorted in some cases. Because Chazhound seems more balanced and polite (mostly!), I feel safest to post my thoughts about it here.
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  #12  
Old 10-10-2006, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jess2416 View Post
Here we go.....
Yes I was a bit harsh, I do appoligise!
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  #13  
Old 10-10-2006, 03:11 AM
cindr
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Hey Delisay: I am taking this time to appoligise to you and any one else on this forum. I have an attitude when It comes to some situations that you spoke of in your origanal post. I became grafic and alouf. Actually nasty. I hope that you can understand that I really did not mean to attack you and or any one else out here. I just have seen and heard to much and it really bothers me when things are not done to contex. My personal problem and personal issue where as I should learn to control my self. I again appoligise
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  #14  
Old 10-10-2006, 04:06 AM
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Hello Delisay... you put a lot of time and thought into your post and you're right. I believe what I've seen most in chazhound threads though, is the genuine concern for the future of some of these "purebreeds" and what's to come in the "designer breed" industry. Both very different from the support everyone gives when discussing adopting a rescue, mixed breeds/mutts, saving a puppymill pup, ect. (Which, as you've read, most members are "for") Unfortunately, over the years we've bred many genetic disorders, cancers, skin, bone and behavioral disorders/diseases, into our purebreeds. As it's happening in the "best of the best" line of dogs, with responsible, educated breeders... one can only wonder what the uneducated, breeder mixing these breeds will produce. Say... the breeder who aquires a poodle whose not been checked for very common opthalmic disorders, bred to a lab whose not been tested for common bone-joint disease. The general public doesn't know any better and would often be wiser adopting a mixed breed from the shelter, verses paying $1500.00 for one of these "designer breeds". Next, the arguement of... why purposely breed mixed breeds? Generally hard to sell, so they're given away. The shelters are full of unwanted dogs, euthanized by the wheelbarrow-full monthly, in some cities. I said "sell", verses give away, because I find someone purchasing a puppy after having made that investment, is more likely to protect that investment. More often willing to incur any nessecary medical expenses, than the owner of the free pound puppy, who can simply return it or the litter of puppies it produced. Hence, the shelters being full of strays, returned or abandoned mixed breeds. They are just as valuable an animal as the next, but as crude as it sounds, they're more "disposable" in our society, because of a lesser monetary value. There are too many of them as it is. So, as wreckless, unnnesecary breedings continue or are even promoted, it will be the mixed breed/mutt dog that suffers. As for the human referance... if you have two individuals carrying a gene that causes a high mortality rate in an offspring or a 10 year life expectancy, at best, with a very poor quality of life for those 10 years... would you purposely produce that child anyway, knowing your odds? Most of us wouldn't, but in our dogs, yes... we breed them anyway knowing the odds of genetic disorder, temperament problems, or the unlikely adoptability ratio. It's an unfortunate fact. Good thing most of the chazhound family, no matter how occassionally misguided, edgy or even pissed off they sometimes become with each other, they all seem to have a sincere love for dogs. On that cheery note, lol, have a nice evening.
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  #15  
Old 10-10-2006, 01:28 PM
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The thing is people didn't mix Terrier A with Terrier B because "I'll bet the puppies would be SO CUTE!" They mixed them because they thought their offspring, Terrier C, would be even better at killing rats than A & B.

Now, if someone has a farm and selectively breeds their mixed-breed herding dogs in order to maintain herding instincts and breed a superior herding dog, I'm fine with that.

If someone is breeding "Alaskan huskies", which are basically a mix of any dog the mushers think would make a good sled dog, for the purpose of getting a superior sled dog, I'm fine with that.

If someone breeding a Westie and a Shih Tzu because "the puppies will be so cute", that's stupid. There are thousands of cute dogs dying in animal shelters.

If someone is breeding Mutt A and Mutt B to do agility, advanced obedience, or another dog sport that does not require SPECIFIC instincts (aside from general trainability and intelligence), that's stupid. Again--thousands of dogs who could do great in agility and obedience dying in shelters.

If someone is breeding a new "crossbreed" to fulfill a purpose for which ideal purebreds already exist, that's stupid. Don't go out and breed a new kind of hunting dog, just go get a field English setter or a field lab. Or adopt a mixed breed with hunting instincts. What's going to happen to all those generations of puppies who "don't work out" as you breed towards your "perfect" dog?

Most people have dogs primarily as pets these days. They may do some hunting, some agility, some tracking, but they aren't going to starve to death if their bloodhound can't scent out a deer. Most people primarily need companion dogs. And almost any dog can fulfill that role. No need to try to breed what already exists.

Mutts are great! I love mutts! People should go to the shelter and adopt one, like I did.
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  #16  
Old 10-10-2006, 02:51 PM
Muggie'sMum Muggie'sMum is offline
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Delisay, I enjoyed your post. I always like to hear the different opinions and thought trains of other folks when it comes to breeding animals. As someone who has been breeding animals (not always dogs) her entire life, I can say that animal breeders, regardless of the quality of animals they raise recieve some of the highest praise and harshest criticism from people who have never been in their shoes and do not understand the dynamic of what they are doing. Take inbreeding for example - many breeds and "great" bloodlines were, indeed, inbred to "guarantee" the trait that makes them SO "great". With that said, I don't condone the breeding of genetic flaws and diseases for cosmetic purposes or otherwise superficial purposes, but where do you draw the line? (I am thinking of HYPP in horses)

Am I anti-mutt? No.. I am a bit of a purebred snob, I will admit, but what bothers me far more than the intermingling of breeds is the care and thought that goes into them from the person responsible for the well being of the dogs being bred. There is a difference between having an unspayed bitch get loose and pregnant and finding homes for all of the pups vs dropping the boxfull of them off at the shelter doorstep.

Maybe it's not so much irresponsibility, but the responsibility for the actions - as someone said, animals breed based on instinct, not on romance, and more often than not, they breed as a result of an action of the owners - be it failure to spay/neuter, exposure to an animal of the opposite sex. Rather than being condescending and putting so much effort into admonishing the "backyard breeder" (Oh how I despise and loathe that term!), maybe we should be praising those who take responsibility, and step up to the plate when these "accidents" happen.

Those who are stupid, just are, unfortunately. There's nothing to be done about that. You can preach all you want at them, but if someone earnestly believes in what they are doing (the way that we who discourage irresponsible breeding, or try to! do), there is little you can do to dissuade them. You cannot educate those who believe they already are educated.
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  #17  
Old 10-10-2006, 03:20 PM
Gempress Gempress is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delisay View Post
Almost all current "pedigree" dogs began in exactly this way - intentional cross-breeding of particular animals for a particular purpose.
I don't really like that statement. Although it is true, it seems to be the trademark justification excuse of 99% of designer dog puppy millers I have encountered. It's usually voiced in the form of:

"But all our modern dog breeds come from mutts! There's nothing wrong with the creation of a new breed. In a few years, my breed will be recognized by (insert registry of choice)."

There is a BIG difference between creating a new breed and just breeding mixes. For example, take the doberman pinscher. The creator of that dog had a specific purpose in mind. He knew exactly what kind of dog he wanted. He had a mental picture of how this dog should look, act, and what its physical abilities should be. I'm sure that of the initial puppies he produced, few of them met his standard. The non-ideal puppies were not recycled into his breeding program. And his vision took foresight, especially with so many breeds in the mix. It took planned breedings over many dog generations to accomplish.

Compare that with the loveable cockerpoo, one of the classic designer dogs. What does a cockerpoo look like? How tall is it? It the coat curly like a poodle, or long and wavy like a cocker? What colors does it come in? Conformationwise, how should the head and body look? How does it behave? Usually, these questions can sadly not be answered. You can have five cockerpoos, and they will all look different. There is no ultimate goal that the breeders are striving for. They just mix two dogs and call it a cockerpoo. And that's why they haven't been accepted into reputable registries yet.

I'm not against creating a new breed, I'm against breeding mixes. If someone has a specific breeding program and is taking care with it, I have no problem with it.
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  #18  
Old 10-11-2006, 08:56 AM
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Ashlea Ashlea is offline
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We have enough pure breds, they fill every niche. We don't need any more. That is why no more should be "created".
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  #19  
Old 10-11-2006, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
I don't really like that statement. Although it is true, it seems to be the trademark justification excuse of 99% of designer dog puppy millers I have encountered. It's usually voiced in the form of:

"But all our modern dog breeds come from mutts! There's nothing wrong with the creation of a new breed. In a few years, my breed will be recognized by (insert registry of choice)."
OMG that is exactly what i was going to say , this is the defense used by puppymillers

and they are INCORRECT

cross breeds (mutts) are TWO breeds, bred for MONEY

Purebreds are LOADS (not just two) breeds all put together for one purpose, and to try and create the perfect dog for what they are used for, they are perfected over decades using different breeds from all across the world

and again i love mutts but cross breeding for money i do not love, but as long as its for a GOOD reason, i dont care
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  #20  
Old 10-11-2006, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsoul View Post
Until there aren't millions of dogs dying in shelters every year -- breeding should only occur to better a breed, not to create more.
This is the big reason why I cringe at the thought of ANY breeding...there are always purebred dogs entering our shelter and there are mixed breeds as well...it breaks my heart to think of how many of them were created with good intentions and they end up there...many just waiting to die...I know that it is not realistic to think that people will stop breeding...even indescriminant breeding...but, in a perfect world, supply would equal demand. So many shelter dogs do originate from respectable breeding programs. It is as much of a fantasy for a breeder to think that every puppy they place will get a wonderful FOREVER home as it is for me to dream that we can find a home for all of the "accidental" breedings...I do believe that everyone has the individual right to do as they will, so I cannot stop people from breeding...not just dogs, but cats and even horses...it is a matter of economy in many instances...there is so much controversey over horse slaughter right now...well, the unwanted ones have to go somewhere...I guess working in animal rescue has opened my eyes. So many people live in a bubble....they never realize how many lives are lost in shelters every day...they don't think about the quality of the lives of the ones lucky enough to end up in a no-killl, sitting in the equivelent of a prison cell waiting for someone to pick them...waiting for sometimes months on end...they have not looked into the eyes of a dog as he gets his lethal injection and apologized to him for all of the sins that man has committed against him...I have come to realize that people are going to do whatever they want to do and they will find any way they can to justify it...I will simply do my best to make a difference in as many animal lives as I can, but the saying on the coffee mug...God grant me the serenity...certainly does apply...I am not naive enough to think I can stop anyone from breeding so I don't even try...no one out there needs anyone's approval, so I wonder why this topic always ends up under debate? I agree to disagree and go on with my business. Sadly, there is plenty of business for me to go onto...
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