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Old 10-09-2006, 10:42 PM
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Delisay Delisay is offline
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Post Mutts, Mixes, Mills & Pedigrees

Hi all

Having spent quite some time lately reading the various dog boards, I find myself disturbed by some of the rigid thinking and rude comment from certain individuals on the subject of the ancient and continued art of mixing breeds. I do understand the motivation, but the thinking seems to be quite distorted in some cases. Because Chazhound seems more balanced and polite (mostly!), I feel safest to post my thoughts about it here. (BTW, I am not breeder so have no vested interest; I have owned a beautiful pedigree GSD in the past and plan to own a beautiful either a pedigree or mixed-breed little dog some time soon...)

To begin... two key points:

- A "mutt", in common parlance, is usually taken to mean 'the product of multiple, random matings' - the type traditionally created by stray dogs in rubbish tips. This is substantially different from careful, intentional cross-breeding of selected animals in an attempt to produce a particular animal for a particular purpose (hunting, family pets, guidedogs, sniffers, show, etc).

- Almost all current "pedigree" dogs began in exactly this way - intentional cross-breeding of particular animals for a particular purpose. Humans have been doing this forever, and they won't conveniently stop during our lifetimes just to appease the anxieties of few people. (Please see the list at the bottom of this post for the "mutt" background of our beloved "pedigree" pooches!)

Many major kennel clubs understand the above two points perfectly well, and thus have a slow and careful ongoing process for officially recognising new breeds (or crosses) as they are developed. Is it really so much of a stretch for pedigree owners/breeders to understand this aswell?

Here's a human analogy, to help illustrate the dubious thinking that's currently being bandied around in the name of 'ethics':

If 6 (1 female and 5 male) uneducated, unemployed humans, of varied races and dodgy temperaments, get together randomly and produce 6 'pure' and 'mixed breed' children, we call this "irresponsible". There is a much higher than usual chance that some of these children will be neglected, have behavioural or intellectual problems, and/or end up swelling the ranks of foster homes...

However, if 2 educated, employed, good-natured humans of 2 races get together and carefully raise 3 well-adjusted, healthy 'mixed-breed' children, we simply admire what a good job they've done and how unusually good-looking their well-behaved children are. How absurd it would be to say to them instead, "Well if all you wanted were mutts you should have gone to the foster home and got a few 8-12 year olds - there are loads of them. You were ripped off if you paid thousands for maternity costs and kindergarten for those... and what are a few behavioural problems anyway? It was irresponsible and selfish of you to have your own children."

The obvious offensiveness of this kind of thinking when applied to humans starkly reveals how daft it is when applied to any other animal. The crime is not the 'race' or 'breed'; the crime is 'bad behaviour' in the form of irresponsible reproduction. I can't believe that we, as a human race, still haven't quite collectively grasped this concept yet, and keep making this same error of generalised thinking. Here are some more ideas:

Crime = Breeding or raising Pit Bulls or any other breed in such a way as results in a dangerous animal.
Non-crime = Breeding or raising Pit Bulls or any other breed in such a way as results in reliably good-natured, safe animals.

Crime = Charging high (or low) prices for products or services which detract from the wellbeing of the purchaser.
Non-crime = Charging high (or low) prices for products or services which add to the wellbeing of the purchaser.

Crime = Being one of the 5% of men who commit acts of violence (of which 98% are carried out by men).
Non-crime = Being a man...who is one of the 95% of men who do not commit acts of violence.

Crime = Uncaring 'puppy mill' breeding of mixed-breed or pedigree dogs so as to get cute puppies out to the pet market as fast as possible, without concern for where they end up, or for their mental and physical health.
Non-crime = Careful breeding of mixed-breed or pedigree dogs, so as to produce mentally and physically healthy, cute puppies for caring, discerning pet owners or another purpose.

I'll say it again: The crime is the behaviour. Generalising is irritatingly ignorant, but most importantly it causes the point to be missed and therefore the problem to remain unsolved. If we punish the wrong thing - like 'being a man', or 'mixed race', or 'charging for a product' - we fail to solve the real problem, which is nearly always just 'bad behaviour by certain individuals'.


And now, for the interest of the 'anti-mutt brigade', here are the mixed-breed heritages of some of our "pedigree mutts"! :
(In fact, you can technically 'make your own pedigree' from the 'recipe' in some cases!)

Affenpinscher: Various working terriers

Airedale Terrier: Old English Brokenhaired Terrier + Otterhound + various other terrier breeds

American Eskimo Dog: From German Spitz

American Water Spaniel: From Irish Water Spaniel

Australian Silky: Australian Terrier + Yorkshire Terrier-type dogs brought by convicts + later addition of Skye Terrier + Dandie Dinmont

Beagle: Harrier + hounds of ancient England

Bedlington terrier: Whippet + Otterhound + Dandie Dinmont

Bernese Mountain Dog: Tibetan Mastiff + local sheepdogs

Bichon Frise: Poodle + Barbet Water Spaniel.

Borzoi: Arabian Greyhound/Gazelle Hound + Longhaired Russian Sheepdog OR Asian greyhounds + Russian indigenous dogs

Boston Terrier: English Bulldog + White English Terrier.

Boxer: Danziger + Brabanter Bullenbeisser (in turn from Mastiffs) + other Bavarian breeds.

Bull Mastiff: English Mastiff + Bulldog

Bull Terrier: Bulldog + White English Terrier

Chow Chow: Spitz descent.

Clumber spaniel: Basset Hound + Alpine Spaniel.

Doberman: Rottweiler + English Greyhound + German Pinscher + Weimaraner + Manchester Terrier.
(Bred by Herr Louis Dobermann, a tax collector, to protect himself on his rounds. My, things haven't changed much...Doberlawyers.)

Field Spaniel: English Cocker Spaniel + English Springer Spaniel

Flatcoated Retriever: Newfoundland + Labrador Retriever

German Shorthaired Pointer: Bloodhound + Spanish Pointer or English Foxhound

Golden Retriever: Yellow Retriever or Flat-coated Retriever + Tweed Water Spaniel + later addition of Newfoundland

Great Dane: Mastiff + Greyhound

Great Pyrenees: Italian Maremma + Slovakian Kuvac + Hungarian Kuvasz + Turkish Karabash

Harrier: Beagle + St. Hubert hounds

Havanese: Water Spaniel + Poodle + Portuguese Water Dog

Irish Setter: Old Spanish Pointer + Setting spaniels + early Scottish setters

Leonberger: Newfoundland + St. Bernard + Great Pyrenees.

Miniature schnauzer: Giant and Standard Schnauzers + Affenpinscher + Miniature Pinscher

Old English Sheepdog: Briard + Bearded Collie + Russian Owtchar

Olde English Bulldogge: English Bulldog + American Bulldog + Bull Mastiff + American Pit Bull Terrier

Papillon: From Spanish Dwarf Spaniel +...

Pointer: Foxhound + Greyhound + Bloodhound.

Pomeranian: From a north German sheepdog. (When introduced to the UK it was large and white, up to 13 kg!)

Pug: From Mastiffs.

Rhodesian Ridgeback: Hottentot Ridged Dog + Bloodhound + Greyhound.

Rottweiler: Various local shepherds’ dogs + a Mastiff-like dog.

Rough Collie: Various Scottish and Irish herding and farm dogs + later addition of Russian Borzoi

Saint Bernard: From Molossian Mastiff

Shetland Sheepdog: Rough Collies + various dogs of Scottish Shetland Islands

Shih Tzu: Lhasa Apso + Pekingese or Chinese Pug.

Smooth Fox Terrier: Smooth Coated Black & Tan Terrier + Bull Terrier + Greyhound + Beagle

Softcoated Wheaten Terrier: Kerry Blue Terrier + Irish Terrier

Standard schnauzer: Beaver dog + Rough Coated Ratting dog or Shepherd

Whippet: Terrier + Greyhound

Yorkshire Terrier: English Black & Tan + Skye Terrier + Maltese.

[etc!!]



(I am now going to stand behind my Rottweiler + English Greyhound + German Pinscher + Weimaraner + Manchester Terrier and see what happens... )

Delisay
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  #2  
Old 10-09-2006, 10:52 PM
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It's been pointed out time and time again, but the idea keeps getting missed. We are not anti-mutt. Far from it. The only "anti-mutt" aspect of this board is the intentional and irresponsible breeding for profit that has run rampent in the last few years. There is nothing about creating an actual new breed, just more money for the breeders/pet shops/mills, etc.

New breeds are created with a final intent and purpose in mind, and do not simply mean the same F1 to F1 breeding that encompasses most "new breeds" breeding program. Even those few breeds you posted that were created out of two breeds like the Wheaten were part of a careful program that had a set list of attributes in mind and only those dogs that met those attributes were bred from to create the next generation. This is very, very rarely done these days.

I can see how some people, especially those who have only been here for a short time, could get the impression that we as a board are "anti-mutt" but again, it's really "anti-idiot" that we are.
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Old 10-09-2006, 11:11 PM
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Agree !!! Add to that list my beloved Golden Retriever breed !! What a mix that was !!! All of the breeds I love !
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Old 10-09-2006, 11:15 PM
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Until there aren't millions of dogs dying in shelters every year -- breeding should only occur to better a breed, not to create more. Yes, all purebreds were created from mutts -- however, the majority of these breeds were created in a different time and age -- when animal shelters didn't exist, and there were niches to be filled in a working dog world. When people bred mixes to breed true.

You can't compare children to puppies. You can't just go to your local child shelter, look inside the kennels of dozens of children on death row, and say "I'll take that one." Humans were not bred for specific purposes, and so we do not have to breed for "working ability," though I do find it irresponsible to have children knowing you have genetic health issues.

I love mutts, I've had mutts. I most certainly am not anti-mutt. I am anti-mutt-breeding. There are enough breeds to fill every niche. Why create more? Now, in my opinion, the Alaskan husky is an exception to the rule, as there is a need for a faster sled dog. I wouldn't be against any other breeds being created to fill specific roles that other breeds couldn't fullfill as well. But what need do we have for cockapoos, chugs, pooapoms, yorkipoos, maltepoos, doodleman pinschers, German shepoodles, cockaliers, etc?
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  #5  
Old 10-09-2006, 11:16 PM
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Delisay Delisay is offline
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Zoom, "anti-idiot" is a good and neat summary! (BTW, in case you didn't notice at the beginning, I made the point of saying that Chazhound is more balanced and hence posting here rather than daring to 'set paw' on the various 'bully boards'!)

D.
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  #6  
Old 10-09-2006, 11:22 PM
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Sorry, I think I skimmed past that part and only read the "rude" part...my bad. It's late and I'm indulging in some "whine".
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Old 10-10-2006, 12:44 AM
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Chul3l3ies1126 Chul3l3ies1126 is offline
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ehh, i love all dogs, but i say that mutts overcome all... sorry guys... thats all i will say... kool delisay
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  #8  
Old 10-10-2006, 12:44 AM
cindr
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revised

Last edited by cindr; 10-10-2006 at 12:58 AM. Reason: computer clich
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  #9  
Old 10-10-2006, 12:56 AM
cindr
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As a avid dog lover breeder and trainer; I can state to you that your comments are unjust, simple minded and uncalled for. If you had taken the time to truly read all and any of these posts the members here are concerned for the betterment of the dog.

Where can you justify your statements as too the human race to the dog race? We all know that humans have the ability to make a decision as to whom they wish to be with. Where as a dog comes into season thus accepts the male due to the natural animal instinct. Not out of the love the dog has for the other dog as a human should or would for their partners.

The members here are very well versed in the subjects as to how a dog originated from. Now it is again up to the human to secure that they are not abused for financial gain.

There are a few differances as to the subjects at hand but can be found very simular:

Humans::::::::::

1) Ethical and responsible; All races not just non purebreds/ Love adore their children, secure their health and welfare. Secure their up bringing with truth and happiness

2) Irresponsible humans; Could care less what happens to the child mentally and or physically as well generally has children to line their back pockets with the monthly welfair check

Dogs breeders:

1) Ethical breeder secures the health, temp and welfair of the dogs that they wish to breed pure or unpure. secures and maintanes a proper for ever home for the dogs. They are profectionists in their own rights.

2) Irresponsible breeder: Could give a dame how many times the bitch is bred, by who and or what. Represents them as something that they are not. Why FINANCIAL GAIN. The dog is bred each and every heat Cycle with no given chance to rest and or recoop. They use the dog to line their back pockets with $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. They give a RATS ASS WHAT HAPPENS TO THE DOGS AS LONG AS THEY HAVE THE MONEY TO GRACE THEIR DAILY DRUG HABIT AND OR GET THIS PAY THEIR BILLS.
SO NO WE ARE NOT ANTI PUREBRED WE ARE ANTI ASS HOLE AND ANTI WING NUT. If the main purpose for some one to own a dog is to get rich then they need to get a life.

we are happy that you have your best freind and that is a given. But remember it is all fair in love and war. So yeah I really beleive you should get your facts straight before you place the statements you have!!!!
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Old 10-10-2006, 01:12 AM
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