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Old 10-05-2006, 04:30 PM
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Cool Breeder 'good practice' or dubious?

Can someone please advise me about this:

One of the breeds I am considering buying is rare in my country. A breeder that I spoke to sells them for 3 to 4 times the cost of other pedigree toy dogs. She also sells them desexed only - because, she says, she doesn't want people to breed from imperfect animals (or cross-breed) and she's only being responsible. Therefore, also, she doesn't sell them before 14 weeks. My thoughts are:

- If the breed is so rare, then the more the better. Preventing breeding sounds like securing her market.

- If her dogs are such high quality show animals, what is the chance of so many puppies being born which are so inferior that breeding from them would be "irresponsible"? Again it sounds like possible market protection.

- I was taught not to de-sex very young animals because it's important for health reasons to wait for their full adult development before removing their hormone supply.

- It's not possible to really know what quality of adult will emerge from a puppy just a few weeks old, and therefore whether one might eventually want to breed from it. I hate the notion of making a premature decision about something so important.

- I hate the idea of leaving a puppy in a kennel for the majority of its most formative weeks - 7 to 16 - when I could be nurturing and teaching it so much in that time.

What do you think???

Thanks!
Delisay
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Old 10-05-2006, 04:32 PM
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What breed is this?
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Old 10-05-2006, 04:56 PM
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In the Bichon group - small dog, 9-10 inches as an adult.
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Old 10-05-2006, 05:50 PM
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' A breeder that I spoke to sells them for 3 to 4 times the cost of other pedigree toy dogs. "

Can you tell me the price pls so i can understand what a toy breed goes for?

"She also sells them desexed only"

My 1st thing is rescue and i prefer this on one part reduce rescues.

"Preventing breeding sounds like securing her market."

It cant be taken both way however im a breeder buyers can and will screw you and you can have a litter of mutts in a second which is how long it takes for the deed to be done.

You are also not considering if the breed is rare selling intact dogs for breeding require you to help them find outcross studs or bitches which is very hard with rare breeds.

IN addition when you sell intact dogs for breeding or as pets that are intact you have to be a mentor for someone who wanted to breed or someone who
changed the pet purchase into a breeding dog because they are so rare.

"- If her dogs are such high quality show animals, what is the chance of so many puppies being born which are so inferior that breeding from them would be "irresponsible"? Again it sounds like possible market protection."

See above and truth is best of the best for me is about 2-3 pups in a litter of 9, meeting the standard of excellence maybe 50-60 % and dogs that are not in standard or are small in one part etc I BREED big dogs is 1-3 pups.
So they dont need to be a pet quality to be deemed a pet dog

'- I was taught not to de-sex very young animals because it's important for health reasons '

I agree because in big dogs it can take the bulk out of dogs males and they look sleeker vs rougher which is why i stopped neutering young.
Females i also dont spay till 1 year _ again I breed huge dogs that mature slowly . And the bladder control was not there for the 1 female i spayed at 5 months.

I dont think this would apply to little dogs but cant say either way.

"
' It's not possible to really know what quality of adult will emerge from a puppy just a few weeks old, and therefore whether one might eventually want to breed from it. I hate the notion of making a premature decision about something so important. '

That is why she fixes them this above statement if you want to become a breeder and get her stock she must know from the get go .
Pets owners who may " want to breed" but do not from the get go start the mentoring needed is why breeders give up and fix the dogs.

Mentoring is like marrying a stranger . Some people can only mentor so much- Breeders do have lives I spent 1 hr with one of my " breeders" who wishes to breed and when she breeds it will be a full time job to help her.

A good breeder wishes also to protect their line. Ive studed my dogs out to other breeders who screwed up the line by breeding pets with diseases .

So all in all dont sound weird to me sounds like self preservation for her line and the quality of life she wishes to have.

- I hate the idea of leaving a puppy in a kennel for the majority of its most formative weeks - 7 to 16 - when I could be nurturing and teaching it so much in that time.

This i do agree with which is why my contract says breed my dog without permession untill the female is old enough for spay and you owe me 10000 dollars and the pups and i will take the dog back from you .
Males i have to trust so I am now considering vastomy early.

But at least they are in the new homes at 9-10 wks.

Bu chance is this a Bolonka?

JD
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Old 10-05-2006, 07:20 PM
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[QUOTE=Delisay;470993- If her dogs are such high quality show animals, what is the chance of so many puppies being born which are so inferior that breeding from them would be "irresponsible"? Again it sounds like possible market protection.[/QUOTE]

even if you breed the best possible specimins of a breed, you're likely only going to come up with a very small number of pups who are up to par. most litters have maybe 1 or 2 show quality dogs. that's NORMAL. not wanting pet quality pups to be bred is extremely *responsible*.

i don't have a problem with the pups being kept with the breeder for that long provided that she's working with and socializing them to the world at large. it's not going to affect how the pup bonds with you. if they're just being kept in a pen and never taken outside, that's another story.
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Old 10-05-2006, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elegy View Post
most litters have maybe 1 or 2 show quality dogs.
That really depends on the breed and what one constitutes as "show quality." A rare breed is likely to be showable, if not particularily show "quality," and an entire litter of pups can be showable, even if they aren't really show "quality" -- know what I mean? For instance Jaguar, one of the girls in my sig, has round eyes, unparallel headplanes, no coat, big ears, a hooked gay tail, too little bone, and she's easty-westy. But she has points towards her Can CH and will likely achieve her Can CH by next year. She ain't show quality, but she certainly is showable! That is what you get in less common breeds that not only don't have alot of other competition in the own breed, but likely have a less developed breed standard. And so an entire litter of rare breed pups could easily be sold as "show quality," and likely would in a BYB situation.

Sounds to me like this lady isn't talking about her own pups being inferior specimens -- but rather the ones they will potentially be bred to! It isn't uncommon for a breder to spay/neuter at a young age. I personally believe in waiting until the dog is physically mature before altering, but that's just me. All breeders should do what they think is best when protecting their breed. It isn't true that "more is better" when it's a rare breed. All breeds start out rare -- look what happens to them in the end. Sounds to me like she is just protecting it from (likely) the inevitable.
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Old 10-05-2006, 08:27 PM
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I consider this very good practice on the breeders behalf. She's looking out for her dogs ultimate health and well being. Breeding should not be taken lightly by any means, and she's ensuring that it's left to those who truly know what they're doing. Good for her.

Also, there's lots of new information about desexing at such a young age, and I've heard it's actually becoming favoured, but don't have any real substantial info on it, and it may be I'm thinking cats not dogs... perhaps someone else knows more?
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Old 10-05-2006, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanillasugar View Post

Also, there's lots of new information about desexing at such a young age, and I've heard it's actually becoming favoured, but don't have any real substantial info on it, and it may be I'm thinking cats not dogs... perhaps someone else knows more?
The problem with early altering is that it affects the bones. While cutting down on cancers related to the sex organs, you are greatly increasing the risk of bone cancer. It leaves the growth plates open alot longer and so the dog tends to grow up taller and lankier. Females tend to look like males, males tend to look like females. Personally I believe in waiting until the dog is completely done maturing, physically -- however I am not sorry that people practise early neutering. When you a sell a puppy unaltered, regardless of contracts, you always take a risk. The more dogs neutered, the less dogs ending up in shelters. Might not be something I practise, but good for those who do.
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Old 10-05-2006, 09:22 PM
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Everything you mentioned about this breeder sounds excellant to me. She is being completely responsible like she should be and not letting her pups be carelessly bred by inexperienced people who are just in it to make the big bucks. When you breed, it can cost thousands of dollars by the time you are done health testing and certifying the dog and everything. Breeding is not for everyone especially the inexperienced and the fact that it is a rare breed makes no difference.

She sounds really great and I wish all breeders were like this one! Why can't all breeders live up to the responsibility of bringing dogs into the world like this breeder does? I like how she sounds a lot.

What breed are we talking about and what is the cost?
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Old 10-05-2006, 09:30 PM
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Thanks for your thoughts everyone. Given that I so much like the 'stocky' look in small dogs, the following concerns me about early de-sexing:

2005 Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

"...bitches spayed at 7 weeks grew significantly taller than those spayed at 7 months ... those spayed at 7 months had significantly delayed closure of the growth plates ...

...bitches and dogs spayed and neutered at less than a year of age were significantly taller than those spayed or neutered at more than a year of age.

....Dogs that have been spayed or neutered well before puberty can frequently be identified by their longer limbs, lighter bone structure, narrow chests and narrow skulls. This abnormal growth frequently results in significant alterations in body proportions ...an abnormal angle may develop at the stifle. ... the lower leg below the stifle becomes heavier (because it is longer), causing increased stresses on the cranial cruciate ligament.

...spayed and neutered dogs have a higher incidence of CCL rupture.

...dogs spayed or neutered before 5 1/2 months had a significantly higher incidence of hip dysplasia than those spayed or neutered after 5 1/2 months of age.

...there was a 5 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma, one of the three most common cancers in dogs, in spayed bitches than intact bitches, and a 2.4 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma in neutered dogs ...

...dogs that were neutered before a year of age had a significantly increased chance of developing bone cancer, a cancer that is much more life-threatening than mammary cancer, and that affects both genders.

...Despite the common belief that neutering dogs helps prevent prostate cancer, at least one study suggests that neutering provides no benefit.

...in dogs neutered or spayed before 5 1/2 months ... an increased incidence of noise phobias and undesirable sexual behaviors.

...American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation reported significantly more behavioral problems in spayed and neutered bitches and dogs. The most commonly observed behavioral problem in spayed females was fearful behavior and the most common problem in males was aggression."

(etc)


Hmm... not a simple issue, and no doubt already much discussed. I think I would prefer a more natural approach where possible.

Del.
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