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  #11  
Old 10-04-2006, 08:38 PM
Borntoleadk9.com Borntoleadk9.com is offline
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Originally Posted by Boemy View Post
I don't like the term "choke collar" because if the collar's being used properly, the dog isn't choking. A "choke collar" has to be loose most of the time to be effective. Unfortunately, a lot of people just slap one on without learning how to use it and let their dogs gasp on the other end of the leash.
if a choke collar is being used as designed, the dog is most definetly choking. they were designed to remove the air by strangulation. when you issue a correction you pullup on the leash and remove the ability for the dog to breathe. it gives the dog something to think about why all of a sudden they cant breathe. mostly used for dominant aggression in dogs. i dont use them but thats the point. also used in the show circuit to keep the head up straight.

i just realized the point you were making, so disregard my above comment. you are right about what you said.
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  #12  
Old 10-04-2006, 10:31 PM
cindr
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Default prong collars quick fix

I use both. Neither one is better than the other. It's all about the use of the equiptment. If you use it wrong then your the lost the game all together. As far as the prong collar it is generally just to be termed as a quick fix and nothing more.

We had a Dob name Shania, and did that name suit her. Now she was a bit of a pain at times so I went out and purchased a prong collar. So I would use it on her maybe 2 times and then hang it up in the equiptment room.

Now if Shi would act out I would go to the equiptment room and grab the prong. Shake it and show it to her. Well as soon as she seen the stupid thing she'd straighten up in a heart beat. Did we abuse her with it? No- Not at any time. This is how we used it. I placed it up and behind the ear set. We would go for the walk. She would begin to forge. I would do a quick turn to the right and once I did that she would hit the end of it. She let out a yelp. Oh well you did that to yourself. So by doing this two or three times. Dog got the hint and the collar was them put away.

Now our Shepherds see it they shake and wag hey going for a walk but they do that with anything I pull out.

We had our Rottie trained to walk on a peice of binder twine. So it is all up to you in what you want to use. Just make sure you use it right rather than a weapon.
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  #13  
Old 10-04-2006, 11:44 PM
IliamnasQuest IliamnasQuest is offline
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First thing I do is I teach my dog how to be attentive - without attention, I have very little to base training on.

I do this through a series of steps, marking and reinforcing for attentive behavior and gradually requiring longer amounts of attention before I reward. Once I get stationary attention, I can start taking a step or two, still marking and reinforcing that attention. As I've mentioned before, the tips for teaching attention are on my website (www.kippsdogs.com/tips.html).

Using this method results in a dog that does that head-up attentive heeling:



For walking on a loose leash, I still start with attention and name recognition, so the dog learns to look at me when I say his name. Then I refuse to move unless the leash is loose. Yep, it takes awhile at first. I mark any loose leash behavior and reinforce it, as others have already described. As the dog becomes more proficient at walking on a loose leash (or heeling, depending on what we're working on) I gradually increase the criteria by adding in more distractions. We do a LOT of work in various parking lots where people are walking by, eating, pushing carts, etc.

Today I was working Khana (in the photo above) at the local mall. Kids were skateboarding past, people were pushing strollers and shopping carts, and some "cool" guy in a hot-rod car pulled up and blasted music - bass drum so loud you could feel the vibrations .. *L* (he'll regret that in about 20 years). Khana was absolutely solid, except for one time when three little kids got out of a car and were mesmerized by her. I had Khana do a bunch of tricks for them and rewarded her for that, but you could tell that what she wanted more than anything was to go over and be loved on by those kids! But she was a good girl and listened to me (the Mom told the kids not to go up to her, and I respected that).

My thoughts on a prong collar is that it fixes nothing fast. It may provide an instant change in the dog's behavior (because the dog doesn't want the pain it provides). But it doesn't teach the dog anything except to not pull WHEN the prong collar is on. This is not training - this is merely using something aversive to stop a behavior. People who do this end up walking their dogs on a prong collar the rest of the dog's life because it never learns what it's actually supposed to do.

My concept is that I want the dogs I work with to learn to walk on a loose leash even if it's only a piece of baling twine. I don't want people to have to run and find the prong collar in order to walk their dogs - they should be able to clip a leash on the dog's regular collar and go. So I use the method I mentioned above and it works great. On occasion I'll find a dog that is more easily distracted and determined to pull, and I will go to a Gentle Leader harness (the type that has the ring at the chest - this is not the head halter, it's the harness). I prefer this over the prong because I prefer to first try a tool that doesn't use pain. This is very effective. But, using tools like the GL harness or the prong doesn't mean the dog is trained - they simply give you an opportunity to train properly by keeping the dog from pulling long enough for you to mark and reinforce the "good" behavior. My philosophy is that you should use this as little as possible and work towards having a nicely behaved dog without having to use a tool to get them to walk quietly.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska



Khana heeling in her first rally competition
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  #14  
Old 10-05-2006, 12:04 AM
cindr
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Default training

Quote:
Originally Posted by IliamnasQuest View Post
First thing I do is I teach my dog how to be attentive - without attention, I have very little to base training on.

I do this through a series of steps, marking and reinforcing for attentive behavior and gradually requiring longer amounts of attention before I reward. Once I get stationary attention, I can start taking a step or two, still marking and reinforcing that attention. As I've mentioned before, the tips for teaching attention are on my website (www.kippsdogs.com/tips.html).

Using this method results in a dog that does that head-up attentive heeling:



For walking on a loose leash, I still start with attention and name recognition, so the dog learns to look at me when I say his name. Then I refuse to move unless the leash is loose. Yep, it takes awhile at first. I mark any loose leash behavior and reinforce it, as others have already described. As the dog becomes more proficient at walking on a loose leash (or heeling, depending on what we're working on) I gradually increase the criteria by adding in more distractions. We do a LOT of work in various parking lots where people are walking by, eating, pushing carts, etc.

Today I was working Khana (in the photo above) at the local mall. Kids were skateboarding past, people were pushing strollers and shopping carts, and some "cool" guy in a hot-rod car pulled up and blasted music - bass drum so loud you could feel the vibrations .. *L* (he'll regret that in about 20 years). Khana was absolutely solid, except for one time when three little kids got out of a car and were mesmerized by her. I had Khana do a bunch of tricks for them and rewarded her for that, but you could tell that what she wanted more than anything was to go over and be loved on by those kids! But she was a good girl and listened to me (the Mom told the kids not to go up to her, and I respected that).

My thoughts on a prong collar is that it fixes nothing fast. It may provide an instant change in the dog's behavior (because the dog doesn't want the pain it provides). But it doesn't teach the dog anything except to not pull WHEN the prong collar is on. This is not training - this is merely using something aversive to stop a behavior. People who do this end up walking their dogs on a prong collar the rest of the dog's life because it never learns what it's actually supposed to do.

My concept is that I want the dogs I work with to learn to walk on a loose leash even if it's only a piece of baling twine. I don't want people to have to run and find the prong collar in order to walk their dogs - they should be able to clip a leash on the dog's regular collar and go. So I use the method I mentioned above and it works great. On occasion I'll find a dog that is more easily distracted and determined to pull, and I will go to a Gentle Leader harness (the type that has the ring at the chest - this is not the head halter, it's the harness). I prefer this over the prong because I prefer to first try a tool that doesn't use pain. This is very effective. But, using tools like the GL harness or the prong doesn't mean the dog is trained - they simply give you an opportunity to train properly by keeping the dog from pulling long enough for you to mark and reinforce the "good" behavior. My philosophy is that you should use this as little as possible and work towards having a nicely behaved dog without having to use a tool to get them to walk quietly.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska



Khana heeling in her first rally competition
Awsome demonstration and explaination. If anything someone should learn from your expertise.
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  #15  
Old 10-05-2006, 04:59 PM
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dr2little dr2little is offline
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Originally Posted by cindr View Post
I use both. Neither one is better than the other. It's all about the use of the equiptment. If you use it wrong then your the lost the game all together. As far as the prong collar it is generally just to be termed as a quick fix and nothing more.

We had a Dob name Shania, and did that name suit her. Now she was a bit of a pain at times so I went out and purchased a prong collar. So I would use it on her maybe 2 times and then hang it up in the equiptment room.

Now if Shi would act out I would go to the equiptment room and grab the prong. Shake it and show it to her. Well as soon as she seen the stupid thing she'd straighten up in a heart beat. Did we abuse her with it? No- Not at any time. This is how we used it. I placed it up and behind the ear set. We would go for the walk. She would begin to forge. I would do a quick turn to the right and once I did that she would hit the end of it. She let out a yelp. Oh well you did that to yourself. So by doing this two or three times. Dog got the hint and the collar was them put away.
Now our Shepherds see it they shake and wag hey going for a walk but they do that with anything I pull out.

We had our Rottie trained to walk on a peice of binder twine. So it is all up to you in what you want to use. Just make sure you use it right rather than a weapon.
Not trying to offend but this is just such a good example of why I would never use a prong to control "not teach" any dog...
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  #16  
Old 10-05-2006, 07:24 PM
cindr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borntoleadk9.com View Post
if a choke collar is being used as designed, the dog is most definetly choking. they were designed to remove the air by strangulation. when you issue a correction you pullup on the leash and remove the ability for the dog to breathe. it gives the dog something to think about why all of a sudden they cant breathe. mostly used for dominant aggression in dogs. i dont use them but thats the point. also used in the show circuit to keep the head up straight.

i just realized the point you were making, so disregard my above comment. you are right about what you said.
No No No No; If the choke collar or training equiptment is used properly then there is NO reason the dog should be CHOKED. NOT EVER IS THIS TOOL TO BE USED IN A CRUEL ABUSIVE FASHION. THe truth of the matter. When you use the choke collar or training tool. It is to be kept loose around the neck. At no time what so ever should that collar be pulled tugged towed and or janked on any dog at any time.

I can't stand that anyone would consider to use this training tool in this type of fashion. To be honest with you if I would catch you I would be the first one to put it around your neck and nail you or the person that was using it in such a way.

When I use the collar. It is used right. The collar is on the dog. I am walking foreward dog is forging I would give a slight check to the collar where as it would make a noise. And state heal or Fouse. If the dog choose to continue I would then leave the leash loose where as the dog would be at the end of the 6 foot lead I then turn to the right quickly and the dog then hits the end of the lead. Once this happens the dog realizes what has happened then the dog goes to catch up with me. Now if the dog does something out of the ordinary then I give him a quick check and then release.

I sincerly have a problem when people discuss a training tool that has been around longer than I have to state such a false hood. Not only that it is about getting the dogs attention and the dogs focus on the situation. Learn to get the dog to work on you and what you want from the dog. Rather than subjecting the dog to pain. That is not fair to any animal at any time.
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  #17  
Old 10-05-2006, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by cindr View Post
No No No No; If the choke collar or training equiptment is used properly then there is NO reason the dog should be CHOKED. NOT EVER IS THIS TOOL TO BE USED IN A CRUEL ABUSIVE FASHION. THe truth of the matter. When you use the choke collar or training tool. It is to be kept loose around the neck. At no time what so ever should that collar be pulled tugged towed and or janked on any dog at any time.

I can't stand that anyone would consider to use this training tool in this type of fashion. To be honest with you if I would catch you I would be the first one to put it around your neck and nail you or the person that was using it in such a way.

When I use the collar. It is used right. The collar is on the dog. I am walking foreward dog is forging I would give a slight check to the collar where as it would make a noise. And state heal or Fouse. If the dog choose to continue I would then leave the leash loose where as the dog would be at the end of the 6 foot lead I then turn to the right quickly and the dog then hits the end of the lead. Once this happens the dog realizes what has happened then the dog goes to catch up with me. Now if the dog does something out of the ordinary then I give him a quick check and then release.

I sincerly have a problem when people discuss a training tool that has been around longer than I have to state such a false hood. Not only that it is about getting the dogs attention and the dogs focus on the situation. Learn to get the dog to work on you and what you want from the dog. Rather than subjecting the dog to pain. That is not fair to any animal at any time.
This industry has changed more in the last 10 years than in it's entire history. You'll see more and more trainers choosing not to use aversive tools for a reason. Choke chains, prong/pinch collars and shock collars are ALL based on pain. If you'll review your last post about the prong, there's a reason your dog yelped. To say that it's the sound of the choke chain is an old and not exactly honest arguement. A collar with tags makes the same of similar sound but has no where near the same FEAR OF PAIN response.

FACT - choke chains are responsible for more injuries than any other (collar) training tool currently on the market. I'm sure you'll also acknowledge, being in this industry for a fair amount of time, it is also the most widely misused along with prong/pinch and shock collars.

There is no reason, and quite frankly we don't have the right, to use pain to try to control our dogs, or our clients dogs when so many viable alternatives exist today.
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  #18  
Old 10-05-2006, 07:58 PM
cindr
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Originally Posted by dr2little View Post
This industry has changed more in the last 10 years than in it's entire history. You'll see more and more trainers choosing not to use aversive tools for a reason. Choke chains, prong/pinch collars and shock collars are ALL based on pain. If you'll review your last post about the prong, there's a reason your dog yelped. To say that it's the sound of the choke chain is an old and not exactly honest arguement. A collar with tags makes the same of similar sound but has no where near the same FEAR OF PAIN response.

FACT - choke chains are responsible for more injuries than any other (collar) training tool currently on the market. I'm sure you'll also acknowledge, being in this industry for a fair amount of time, it is also the most widely misused along with prong/pinch and shock collars.

There is no reason, and quite frankly we don't have the right, to use pain to try to control our dogs, or our clients dogs when so many viable alternatives exist today.
Yes Shi yelped and she was a soft dog. In that post I only used it once and never again on the dog. As far to say yes if the collars are used improperly they do cause injury. It is about learning and educating the owners how to use it. Rather than the improper ways of using it. Hey I would never ever put a dog in severe pain never have and never will. As a matter of fact I chose to imprint rather than use all of these cruel superfical antic's.

I will be the first to take a piece out of your hide if I caught you using it improperly. And will state I have. I remember as situation where as a individual was using the tool improperly, I jumped all over them a Police Service Officer was right there. All I received from the Officer was a laugh and a statement Watch your temper. So no don't ever think that any of my dogs have been injured by me and or a tool that I have used for well over 37 yrs. I have trained well over 300 dogs in my day and none of them ever received a imporper correction or improper handling at any time.

We have a code of ethic's that all students must sign, as well all and anyone that signs up for training on and or at my facility must supply a Police Clearance. If they can not then they are not welcome. So as far as I am concerned the tool can be used properly and correctly. If used improperly then that person needs to be litterally SHOT

I hope that I have not caused any hurts here I just know that the tool can be used properly and yes can be used improperly. It is all about education.
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  #19  
Old 10-05-2006, 09:04 PM
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Julie Julie is offline
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Originally Posted by cindr View Post
I use both. Neither one is better than the other. It's all about the use of the equiptment. If you use it wrong then your the lost the game all together. As far as the prong collar it is generally just to be termed as a quick fix and nothing more.

We had a Dob name Shania, and did that name suit her. Now she was a bit of a pain at times so I went out and purchased a prong collar. So I would use it on her maybe 2 times and then hang it up in the equiptment room.

Now if Shi would act out I would go to the equiptment room and grab the prong. Shake it and show it to her. Well as soon as she seen the stupid thing she'd straighten up in a heart beat. Did we abuse her with it? No- Not at any time. This is how we used it. I placed it up and behind the ear set. We would go for the walk. She would begin to forge. I would do a quick turn to the right and once I did that she would hit the end of it. She let out a yelp. Oh well you did that to yourself. So by doing this two or three times. Dog got the hint and the collar was them put away.

Now our Shepherds see it they shake and wag hey going for a walk but they do that with anything I pull out.

We had our Rottie trained to walk on a peice of binder twine. So it is all up to you in what you want to use. Just make sure you use it right rather than a weapon.
Hmm. And you questioned my training methods?
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  #20  
Old 10-05-2006, 09:21 PM
cindr
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Hmm. And you questioned my training methods?
Hi I appoligise but when did I question you? If I did anything and or said anything wrong I am sorry.
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