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  #11  
Old 10-04-2006, 09:14 PM
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wolfsoul wolfsoul is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LizzieCollie View Post
I just want to say this:Yes BYB do cut their costs dramatically, but reputable breeders exagerrate costs, probably to scare possible breeders.

There is nothing wrong with cutting certain corners like home vaccinating (which I do with fosters and my own dogs) home de worming etc.
I completely agree. The only reason I probably spent more than what they listed is because my dog is absolutely spoiled rotten LOL. But there are so many ways to make breeding easier on the budget --- not promoting bad breeding at all.

Here is what I have for Visa's first litter:

1) Purchase the dog -- I got Visa for free. Alot of breeders are willing to give their dogs away on co-ownership or on contract for a puppy or litter back.
2) 2nd set of Shots 3rd set of shots heart guard -- I do not vaccinate, I titer yearly, and I do not use heartworm preventative as I do not like the idea of loading my dogs' body with deadly chemicals when heartworm is not common in my area. I would not titer a young puppy, no point as it's never been exposed.
3) Dog food $70.00 per bag the good food per month. - I definatly spend alot MORE on food LOL. I feed a prey-model raw diet and I usually go with exotic meats -- elk, moose, goat, venison, buffalo, pheasant, duck, etc, so I definatly overspend when it comes to food and treats. Probably $200 a month.
4) Dog training $600.00 or more for the yr -- So far this year I have done agility classes, competitive obedience classes, handling classes, herding classes, AND rally-o classes, and I've not spent even near $600. It helps if you are a member of certain clubs, you can get discounts. I've spent about $300 on training.
5) Hip elbow and shoulder pri-limbed -- Visa was not prelimed. I honestly don't see the point of doing a prelim unless you plan on breeding an underage dog, or unless you don't plan on keeping it if it IS defective. For me, the dog is either dysplastic, or it's not. I X-ray hips and elbows at two years and if it's dysplastic, oh well, I'll keep the dog as a pet. So for me there is no point in doing a preliminary, I can be patient and wait until the dog is two.
6) Next yrs rabies booster and heart -- I don't vaccinate, I titre. Rabies is not required in my area.

So of all these, I've spent about $500.

So now the owner needs to locate a mate for the dog. your not just going to go to just any dog. You have to go to a dog that compliments the dog you already own.
So now the cost rises;
1) Stud service - My stud service would have been $800, but because there was less than three live puppies, it was free.
2) Vet checks on the dog - My vet charges $60 for a puppy's first visit.
3) Dog begins to deliver oops complications arise dog needs a c- section $1500.00 over and above what you have put out - Always on hand, but wasn't needed this time around.
4) puppy food $100.00 per month x 3 months $300.00 - Keep in mind that most people only keep the pups for 2 months. Since I have a singleton and he isn't living with me at the moment, he will cost me ALOT less than $300 in three months.
5) puppy dewormer - I use my own dewormers, they are all natural. I use Wormex which is herbal and costs $15 (I get it cheaper where I work) and lasts a very long time. The other stuff I have is crustacean dust which I get for free from a friend.
6) Puppy shots x 10 - Once again, I am a strong believer in the consequences of overvaccination. I choose to do one set of parvo and distemper nosodes. In future litters I will allow the owners to make their own choices after that -- it is just my own opinion that vaccinations load dogs' bodies with unnecessary disease. Of course I am glad that other people choose to vaccinate, because when their dog sheds the virus after it's vaccine my dog becomes more immune. I won't vaccinate at all though, just use nosodes. It will cost $60 for my pup.
7) Micro chip or tattoo - An aquaintance of mine does CKC tattoos for cheap, and she's way better than the vet. Her's last a long time and are clear and legible. She charges $20. Microchips I haven't found to be any cheaper than $60 unfortunatly. I'm going to do both on my future pups, as I want to be contacted if one of my dogs ends up in a shelter. I won't do chips on my own dogs as the shelters here don't check for microchips. So $20 for a tattoo on my pup.
8) Registrations of pups, $700.00 - $700?!?! Since when does it cost THAT much? I don't know what you pay in AKC, but in CKC it costs $20 per pup ($40 if you aren't a member). So I'll be paying $20, not anywhere near $700.
9) Advertising -- Obviously I won't need it this time around lol, hopefully I never will.
Now there are some other things not mentioned -- the stud is usually not in the same area as the female. I paid $280 in gas money to get her there, and another $400 to ship her back.

For the before-breeding stuff, you also have to register the female (which was already done for me) and there may be other tests important for your breed (I did hips and elbows - $250 - and eyes - $40), such as heart, thyroid, patellas, etc. The costs of entering trials can be quite expensive, especially when it comes to gas money.

So alot of the stuff is alot cheaper for me, because I am in a special situation with one puppy -- also, I cut costs not based on my negligence, but the fact that I take a holistic approach rather than a conventional one when it comes to health. Either way, I still won't end up making any money, as I'm in a breed that is relatively difficult to place, but there are ways to help with costs.

Example -- instead of going crazy on a $400 whelping box, use an old kiddy pool or a rubbermaid tub or even your dog's crate if it's appropriate. Do home-vaccinations instead of going to the vet. Become a member of dog clubs so you can get good discounts. Talk to alot of people when you go to shows and trials so you can get to know who offers services (grooming, training, tattooing, dental, etc) for less. Get your own grooming equipment so you don't have to pay for a groom before a show. Make your own equipment instead of buying it. Always check garage and estate sales for good deals on dog stuff. My friend just bought a used A-frame for $700, and my other friends went to an estate sale a couple of weeks ago and got a tire, four jumps, and a dogwalk, all for $50!! All AAC regulated equipment, too. CARPOOL. I cannot stress it enough. Driving to the show or trial is more expensive than entering it! If there is something in town I always bike to it to save gas money. The dogs run along beside me. I almost never go anywhere in a vehicle, I always bike. Saves alot of gas money. Instead of taking time off work, get a sitter to watch the pups.


So yes I do agree that breeding is incredibly expensive -- do not get into it if you can't afford the time or money. But there are certain things you can do that really help out alot.
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  #12  
Old 10-04-2006, 09:54 PM
cindr
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Default responsible breeding

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimalLoverCatRescuer View Post
Just wanted to ask, and I totally agree with you, but what brand of food costs $70 for a bag? I know about good foods and everything and I practically obsess over what food I feed my pets. But I buy a giant bag for $18-25 depending on what I buy and I thought I was spending a lot. I have never even seen a bag of food for $70 just for one bag. Just curious.

I was also wondering, do responsible breeders ever take their dogs to cheaper clinics for their shots? I know of places that give rabies shots for $5. Is there any reason a breeder wouldn't want to save a little money by getting shots done this way?
Hi good question. Well here in Ontario there are no cheap Vet clinic's We just took our 4 pups and the mom to the vets yesterday. 2nd set of shots heart guard and moms blood test all including the vet call or Office call. $312.00.

Now as far as the dog food is concerned that is the cheaper brand here. That would be Iams Ukanuba is alot more expensive. But no matter the price of the food it is best to feed the right quality rather than the cheap store brand. So yeah that is what we pay to have the dogs taken care of.

So to date the total invested in the litter we have at this time. Just vet bills alone $2000.00 stud fee $1500.00 and the list goes on.

As a matter of fact the stud owner had called stating that he has 2 people interested. What are you asking for the pups. I was like yeah right. I asked why? Oh so I can tell the people. I told her that is my personal business and that is up to me to discuss with the potential purchasers. So if you have people interested then send them here. She then states to me well the one lady can only afford $500.,00. I told her I can not afford to sell any of my dogs for that price. She stated well its a good home. I told her if the person is serious then she can call me. I will decide what I will do from there. Can you believe the nerve. I had no beefs paying the stud service and they have enough nerve to ask this lame ****. Nope the dogs will stay here as long as they have too. This way I know that they have what they need. The longer they stay and the more time and training invested the price goes up. Or they get donated to the Police Services of need
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  #13  
Old 10-04-2006, 10:11 PM
cindr
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Default responsible breeder

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsoul View Post
I completely agree. The only reason I probably spent more than what they listed is because my dog is absolutely spoiled rotten LOL. But there are so many ways to make breeding easier on the budget --- not promoting bad breeding at all.

Here is what I have for Visa's first litter:

1) Purchase the dog -- I got Visa for free. Alot of breeders are willing to give their dogs away on co-ownership or on contract for a puppy or litter back.
2) 2nd set of Shots 3rd set of shots heart guard -- I do not vaccinate, I titer yearly, and I do not use heartworm preventative as I do not like the idea of loading my dogs' body with deadly chemicals when heartworm is not common in my area. I would not titer a young puppy, no point as it's never been exposed.
3) Dog food $70.00 per bag the good food per month. - I definatly spend alot MORE on food LOL. I feed a prey-model raw diet and I usually go with exotic meats -- elk, moose, goat, venison, buffalo, pheasant, duck, etc, so I definatly overspend when it comes to food and treats. Probably $200 a month.
4) Dog training $600.00 or more for the yr -- So far this year I have done agility classes, competitive obedience classes, handling classes, herding classes, AND rally-o classes, and I've not spent even near $600. It helps if you are a member of certain clubs, you can get discounts. I've spent about $300 on training.
5) Hip elbow and shoulder pri-limbed -- Visa was not prelimed. I honestly don't see the point of doing a prelim unless you plan on breeding an underage dog, or unless you don't plan on keeping it if it IS defective. For me, the dog is either dysplastic, or it's not. I X-ray hips and elbows at two years and if it's dysplastic, oh well, I'll keep the dog as a pet. So for me there is no point in doing a preliminary, I can be patient and wait until the dog is two.
6) Next yrs rabies booster and heart -- I don't vaccinate, I titre. Rabies is not required in my area.

So of all these, I've spent about $500.

So now the owner needs to locate a mate for the dog. your not just going to go to just any dog. You have to go to a dog that compliments the dog you already own.
So now the cost rises;
1) Stud service - My stud service would have been $800, but because there was less than three live puppies, it was free.
2) Vet checks on the dog - My vet charges $60 for a puppy's first visit.
3) Dog begins to deliver oops complications arise dog needs a c- section $1500.00 over and above what you have put out - Always on hand, but wasn't needed this time around.
4) puppy food $100.00 per month x 3 months $300.00 - Keep in mind that most people only keep the pups for 2 months. Since I have a singleton and he isn't living with me at the moment, he will cost me ALOT less than $300 in three months.
5) puppy dewormer - I use my own dewormers, they are all natural. I use Wormex which is herbal and costs $15 (I get it cheaper where I work) and lasts a very long time. The other stuff I have is crustacean dust which I get for free from a friend.
6) Puppy shots x 10 - Once again, I am a strong believer in the consequences of overvaccination. I choose to do one set of parvo and distemper nosodes. In future litters I will allow the owners to make their own choices after that -- it is just my own opinion that vaccinations load dogs' bodies with unnecessary disease. Of course I am glad that other people choose to vaccinate, because when their dog sheds the virus after it's vaccine my dog becomes more immune. I won't vaccinate at all though, just use nosodes. It will cost $60 for my pup.
7) Micro chip or tattoo - An aquaintance of mine does CKC tattoos for cheap, and she's way better than the vet. Her's last a long time and are clear and legible. She charges $20. Microchips I haven't found to be any cheaper than $60 unfortunatly. I'm going to do both on my future pups, as I want to be contacted if one of my dogs ends up in a shelter. I won't do chips on my own dogs as the shelters here don't check for microchips. So $20 for a tattoo on my pup.
8) Registrations of pups, $700.00 - $700?!?! Since when does it cost THAT much? I don't know what you pay in AKC, but in CKC it costs $20 per pup ($40 if you aren't a member). So I'll be paying $20, not anywhere near $700.
9) Advertising -- Obviously I won't need it this time around lol, hopefully I never will.
Now there are some other things not mentioned -- the stud is usually not in the same area as the female. I paid $280 in gas money to get her there, and another $400 to ship her back.

For the before-breeding stuff, you also have to register the female (which was already done for me) and there may be other tests important for your breed (I did hips and elbows - $250 - and eyes - $40), such as heart, thyroid, patellas, etc. The costs of entering trials can be quite expensive, especially when it comes to gas money.

So alot of the stuff is alot cheaper for me, because I am in a special situation with one puppy -- also, I cut costs not based on my negligence, but the fact that I take a holistic approach rather than a conventional one when it comes to health. Either way, I still won't end up making any money, as I'm in a breed that is relatively difficult to place, but there are ways to help with costs.

Example -- instead of going crazy on a $400 whelping box, use an old kiddy pool or a rubbermaid tub or even your dog's crate if it's appropriate. Do home-vaccinations instead of going to the vet. Become a member of dog clubs so you can get good discounts. Talk to alot of people when you go to shows and trials so you can get to know who offers services (grooming, training, tattooing, dental, etc) for less. Get your own grooming equipment so you don't have to pay for a groom before a show. Make your own equipment instead of buying it. Always check garage and estate sales for good deals on dog stuff. My friend just bought a used A-frame for $700, and my other friends went to an estate sale a couple of weeks ago and got a tire, four jumps, and a dogwalk, all for $50!! All AAC regulated equipment, too. CARPOOL. I cannot stress it enough. Driving to the show or trial is more expensive than entering it! If there is something in town I always bike to it to save gas money. The dogs run along beside me. I almost never go anywhere in a vehicle, I always bike. Saves alot of gas money. Instead of taking time off work, get a sitter to watch the pups.


So yes I do agree that breeding is incredibly expensive -- do not get into it if you can't afford the time or money. But there are certain things you can do that really help out alot.
Well alot of what you say works for you and that is great. Although take into consideration that when we breed we do not just go to any male at any time. They are generally titled as is the female.

As well we pri-limb each and every dog we own due to the fact we want to secure that there is no growth issues to concern ourselves with. It is a preventative.

We as well do not at any time do co=ownerships do not beleive in them. The new owner must pay for the dog out right. No matter which way you look at a co\ownership you are still paying for the dog if you have to send pups back or the full litter back. Just a little easier on your pocket book

As far as missing and or skipping shots that is not fair to the dog as we all need to protect them from the deseases carried through. Such as parvo and distemper. No one is allowed to bring any dog on my training field at any time with out these areas secured. They must as well have the kennel couph vac. So yes there are all kinds of ways to cut corners.

We all try too. But is it best for the dog or best for you. That is the question?
So yes we all want to become breeder's at one time or another but really is it best to cut corners or is it best to secure and stand behind the dogs you present to the world?

Now I am not attacking you in any way, I am just looking at it in perspective.
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  #14  
Old 10-04-2006, 10:39 PM
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wolfsoul wolfsoul is offline
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I definatly don't go to any male at any time --- I spent over a year looking for a male to breed her to. He is titled, he has his Can CH and a couple legs towards his CD.

I can understand pre-liming a GSD for preventative measure I suppose. I'm lucky I have a breed that very rarely has joint issues. The only real concern for Belgians is epilepsy, something you can't get a health clearance certificate for.

I don't "miss" or "skip" shots, as everyone's vaccine schedule is different. Belgians are a breed very prone to vaccine reactions. Two of my dog's full siblings died when her litter developed parvo after another puppy from a seperate litter had a vaccine reaction and developed parvo himself. Visa almost died. I will not use vaccines, as they supress the immune system. I will only use nosodes which are thought to trigger an immune reaction and are much safer. I titer to ensure that my dogs levels are good. Why vaccinate a dog for parvo annually when her titer levels are 1 in 40,096?
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  #15  
Old 10-04-2006, 10:41 PM
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~Dixie's_Mom~ ~Dixie's_Mom~ is offline
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This is a really good thread for people who want to potentially breed! Alot of people just dive right into this not knowing anything about this stuff that's needed! Really good topic.
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  #16  
Old 10-04-2006, 10:55 PM
cindr
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Originally Posted by wolfsoul View Post
I definatly don't go to any male at any time --- I spent over a year looking for a male to breed her to. He is titled, he has his Can CH and a couple legs towards his CD.

I can understand pre-liming a GSD for preventative measure I suppose. I'm lucky I have a breed that very rarely has joint issues. The only real concern for Belgians is epilepsy, something you can't get a health clearance certificate for.

I don't "miss" or "skip" shots, as everyone's vaccine schedule is different. Belgians are a breed very prone to vaccine reactions. Two of my dog's full siblings died when her litter developed parvo after another puppy from a seperate litter had a vaccine reaction and developed parvo himself. Visa almost died. I will not use vaccines, as they supress the immune system. I will only use nosodes which are thought to trigger an immune reaction and are much safer. I titer to ensure that my dogs levels are good. Why vaccinate a dog for parvo annually when her titer levels are 1 in 40,096?
Hey I understand now. It is great to know that we can learn from each other. Thanx for the correction.

Are the dogs Belgium Terverns or Malinios?
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  #17  
Old 10-04-2006, 10:58 PM
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bubbatd bubbatd is offline
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NEVER USE A WADING POOL or anything else that doesn't have a puppy rail !!! A Whelping pen IS important !! They can be built fairly cheaply .
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  #18  
Old 10-04-2006, 11:12 PM
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wolfsoul wolfsoul is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cindr View Post
Hey I understand now. It is great to know that we can learn from each other. Thanx for the correction.

Are the dogs Belgium Terverns or Malinios?
Actually they are groenendael. Though I'd love to have a tervuren pop up in a litter...One day!
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  #19  
Old 10-04-2006, 11:42 PM
cindr
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Originally Posted by wolfsoul View Post
Actually they are groenendael. Though I'd love to have a tervuren pop up in a litter...One day!
I had one when I was a kid. I bought her for my birthday. LOL boy was my mom mad!!!!!! When wasn't she? I always brought a dog or two home.

I called her My Little Miss Melisa. Mind you she was not that small. She had a lot of health issues as well. Have you ever heard of a dog being allergic to Grass? Well she was. We had to have major sergery done in the areas that were affected.

Mind you not the dogs fault in any way shape or form. It would be the breeders fault. He just bred to breed. No using common sense. Especially with this magnificent breed.

All the other areas put aside she was an awesome working dog. I will never forget working her in our shop. I had her doing off leash building searchs. She never missed a beat. I would send her in the direction and she search the whole area. Once completed she would come and sit right in front of me. Well the one day as our business was closed. I would send her to the door area directed to the 3 offices. Well if I did not send her and someone would walk in. Wame. On the left arm she would go. One command Missy out. With that she released and returned to me. Guess who it would be? Can't beat this one! Our Minister's wife. OOOPSIE

I was only 16 when I bought this girl and for a whole $60.00. Where has time gone?????
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  #20  
Old 10-05-2006, 12:07 AM
IliamnasQuest IliamnasQuest is offline
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I guess I look at this a bit different.

I may breed someday (my young chow). I can figure in what it will cost for some of the health checks I might not have done unless I plan to breed. I can add in the stud fee and/or the cost of AI (as that's probably what I'll do). I can add in the costs on the puppies too (but puppy food is not anywhere near $70 a bag, nor is registration anywhere near $700 a litter). I would certainly add on any veterinary costs involved with my bitch conceiving, carrying and delivering the pups.

BUT .. I can't figure in the costs for buying, feeding or showing her, because these are things I would do anyway whether I bred her or not. Yes, they are expenses that will certainly be part of her life, but they're not additional expenses that are specifically because I plan to breed her. Heck, I've fed and shown many dogs over the years and never bred a single one of them .. *L*.

So when people say that breeders never make any money, I beg to differ. If a person is ONLY in it for the breeding, I suppose that you could estimate in all those figures. But I think that most of us are in it for the love of the dog and the fun of interacting and showing and having dogs as part of our lives. I just can't put a price on that.

All that being said, I doubt I'll make much money as a breeder if and when I decide to breed. Chows tend to have small litters (four or so). I'll keep one. The breeder of my girl may be interested in one. So I might have two to sell to people who would actually pay the "going" price. Unless I charge an awful lot for those two pups, I kind of doubt I'll break even unless everything goes very well and Khana doesn't need anything special.

But people who have litters of eight or ten - you better bet they're probably making money over what it would cost them if they chose not to breed. I'm not saying that's wrong. People need to earn a living, and if they have good quality dogs and are doing all the right things with health tests and proving their dogs through breed surveys and competitions, then they should ask a respectable price for their pups.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
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