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  #31  
Old 10-02-2006, 08:17 PM
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Sorry, once again I didn't slip this post in in time. (for borntolead) Hope he sees this. As for you Rabbitsarebetter... because we've talked before, I thought that was the case! ha! So, you know what to do. No one needs to lecture, especially me. Did you get those nails back and try to get him foward on toes? I notice in a post you said "he has many faults". It certainly wasn't my place to mention any, unless you did and having done so I'm sure your kennel owner/breeder has talked to you a bit about the ones I see in the picture. While he's a beautiful boy, how about agility!?! That pup has a smile to die for in one of those pictures. Once you two have bonded, you might make a great team and it's a great sport for a Sheltie.
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  #32  
Old 10-02-2006, 08:22 PM
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yeah we are working with agility and obedience, i am taking him to a professional as soon as i find one. no i have not bothered getting him up on his toes. as long as its not going to cause anything health related then i am not worried since i decided against showing him.
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  #33  
Old 10-02-2006, 08:27 PM
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Borntolead... I have a great vet and have worked for several outstanding vets in my day. My experience has been primarily "good". (and I certainly appreciate the business they refer to me!) My vet breeds/shows 2 breeds, his dogs having made group at Westminster 2 out of the last 4 yrs. As in any business, good and bad trainers included, you have to do your homework. I hope you'll post your area of expertise and training experience. Now I'm very curious! Lol Have a nice evening.
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  #34  
Old 10-02-2006, 08:34 PM
Borntoleadk9.com Borntoleadk9.com is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otch1 View Post
Borntolead... I have a great vet and have worked for several outstanding vets in my day. My experience has been primarily "good". (and I certainly appreciate the business they refer to me!) My vet breeds/shows 2 breeds, his dogs having made group at Westminster 2 out of the last 4 yrs. As in any business, good and bad trainers included, you have to do your homework. I hope you'll post your area of expertise and training experience. Now I'm very curious! Lol Have a nice evening.
i put up a super quick post. my website says it more in detail.

some vets may indeed be ok sources for training. but in my experience, the bad advice outweighs the good by about 85%.
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  #35  
Old 10-02-2006, 08:47 PM
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I don't have time right now to write much. Aren't you the lucky ones? Gotta run. I just read through the posts though.

Just let me say one thing for now: If you use a lot of force and sterness with this pup, you'll shut him down and he won't be as interested in training in the future. If you do plan to show him, judges like a bouncy, happy, spirited dog who shows little inhibitions but yet educated. There are ways around this problem you're having. Force, dragging is not a good idea. It is not that big of a deal just yet.

It is not about leadership. Its about the fact that he is a pup and hasn't had enough lessons or training. That will come. So, calm down. LOL!

This is also not about pack behavior. Domestic dogs IMO are not pack animals. I've done oodles of study on training, behavior, domestication, evoluton...years...and a lot of training experience (40 yrs, although not for money) Dogs are very distantly related to wolves, not the wolves we know today, but a wolf-like creature which is the common ancestor of the wolves we know today and dogs. There were probably several seperate domestication processess which gave us a domestic type dog.

Although our dogs are tame and social, they come more directly from what became a solitary animal due to its new eccological and biological changes, after evolving from the wolf... and because of the fact that they do not need to hunt or breed to survive or perpetuate the specie in our usual circumstances, there is no pack necessary. That is all a pack is used for with wolves anyhow; hunting large game, breeding and raising young.

Unfortunately, this old, outdated, disproven basis for dominant, aversive type training stems from disproven wolf studies done in captivity. These old studies were shown to be very poorly and unscientifically carried out. And these were done on wolves. Dogs do not think the same way as wolves, do not have the same brain and there are many, many differences. DNA is nearly identical. But not their behavior. Dogs do not live as wolves. So, while they need to learn our rules, HOW we teach them is important. There are extremely effective methods which are becomming more the norm these days than the exception.

Teaching has got nothing to do with dominance. Our dogs are not staging a coupe to take over our world. They simply need to learn and there are ways to teach them things without using excessive domineering techniques or attitudes or aversives. Some of those ways and equipment can cause some undesireable side effects and dampen the enthusiasm and relationship. I'm not saying that all methods people use which are not persay, "positive" are ineffective. But there is a lot you can find out about so I encourage you. More on that later. Dr2little can really help you a lot with successful, gentle training methods and I hope I can too.
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  #36  
Old 10-02-2006, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
some vets may indeed be ok sources for training. but in my experience, the bad advice outweighs the good by about 85%.
No kidding! I forget if it was this forum or the other I go on, but some vet told someone some horrible things to do to their puppy in regard to potty training.....Scold, rub nose in it up to 30 minutes later????? OMG! Just unbelievable. I presume they know medicine but I wouldn't trust them with behavior. You can't learn it all, I guess.
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  #37  
Old 10-02-2006, 08:55 PM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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Quote:
Force, dragging is not a good idea.
I've had to drag quite a few adolecent dogs that simply refused to budge and it's really not that big a deal. I've never had one become depressed, discouraged or fearful because of it. It won't wilt him provided you only do it for a few feet and pair it with plenty of rewards for walkign next to you. I'm not saying you should drag him all the way down the street.

Quote:
Teaching has got nothing to do with dominance. Our dogs are not staging a coupe to take over our world.
This I agree with. I too think there's too much focus on seeing every dog problem as a dominance problem.
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  #38  
Old 10-02-2006, 09:28 PM
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I'm sure some tough old broad puppy can overcome a little dragging. But lots of puppies are insecure and more sensative, unsure of what the heck we're asking of them and just completely naive. Usually, I wouldn't recommend dragging at all, putting any tension in the leash while puppy is still getting use to it. Its all new. I actually start puppies out with no collar and no leash at all in a safe area, of course. (fenced) I make it into a game for the pup to come along with me, using a silly toy, maybe a squeeky one, some yummy, tiny treats every couple of steps (at first)...running a little, patting my thigh. The pup will tend to love this game and when he is doing it regularily with enticement, you can start sticking in a cue, "let's go" in a happy, cheery voice and lots of praise and treats along the way. You can make turns and stop and go again. You can do this for a few days until the pup is really onto this game of coming along beside you. (aproximately beside you is good enough for now)

Meanwhile, in the house when you're just chillin' you can let the pup drag a leash around for a little while, but be sure to supervise constantly so he doesn't get strangled or tangled. LOL. Pick up the leash and let him go where he wants with you going with him. Then try (in the house) going where you want to, again enticing him the same way you did when you were playing the no-leash game. Don't create tension in the leash. Use your happy voice, patting your thigh, a toy and treats as he comes along with you from room to room.

Then try out in your yard. Don't try walking down the street on a long walk yet. In a week or so, he'll be walking happily along your side. You must reinforce what you like and reinforce every few steps with what HE likes best of all. It has to be better than anything else he may be wanting to do. Later you will spread out the treats so he has to take more "nice" steps to get the treat. But at this point, he is still guessing what it is you want him to do, so to make it clear, he has to be rewarded often. Build up that bank account of reinforcements until he makes a clear association of what it is he's doing which is getting him the thing he loves.

We may know what we want, but they have to guess for a while. It could be to him at first to mean some other behavior he's is doing at the same time as he's walking along. Am I getting a treat because I just wagged my tail? Should I wag my tail again? Am I getting a treat because I turned my head sideways? He doesn't know at first that its the walking along side you that hes being rewarded for for sure. He's still guessing. So, that is why many repititions are needed with reinforcements which come immediately with his "good" behavior.

Don't do this for long periods...5-10 minutes 2-3 times a day is fine. Start where there are no significant distractions...your house, your yard. Be sure to end on a good note with something he does well. Quit while you're ahead. If he does some very good walking, even for 3 minutes, stop. Give him a party and come back another time. There's nothing worse than risking his doing a crappy job and then ending the session or trying and trying to get him good again. It can make him sour to it. Leave it with him wanting more.

There's no need to get into a power struggle or an argument about who's boss. Once you start doing that, the dog is more apt to learn that everything is a struggle and he may as well concede. He does things to avoid "corrections" rather than becoming a willing participant. The nature of dogs and humans and their bond is not the nature of wolves with wolves. Our dogs' ancestors lived in the outskirts of primative villages where they scavenged alongside eachother, but not as a pack. There is no need for a pack when food is prevelent. Those neolithic people tolerated them but were not very involved with them. This was the niche they found and from there is where our dogs evolved.

LOL....I guess I had time to write a lot after all. I had to make a phone call and thought I'd be on for ages, but not so.

Last edited by Doberluv; 10-02-2006 at 09:49 PM.
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  #39  
Old 10-02-2006, 10:09 PM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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Wait, are we talking about a dog that knows how to walk on leash but is just putting on the breaks? (which is what i thought we were talking about)

Or, are we talking about a dog that has never walked on a leash before?

If it's the later, then my mistake, certainly don't drag a dog that has never had exposure to leash walking before. That wouldn't be fair.

However if we're talking about a dog that is simply balking because he doesn't want to go somewhere and walks fine otherwise...then i stand by my suggestion as it's worked wonders for me and my clients with similar problems. There's nothing to 'overcome', it's simply not that huge of deal unless you make it one.
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  #40  
Old 10-02-2006, 10:20 PM
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Read rabbitsarebetters' response to me. She's very funny. She even smiles about it. This is a 6 mo. old pup that was leash trained by the breeder, came to her and is now "putting on the breaks' in certain situations. In all fairness to puppy, Ruckus is new to this owner and this current environment, but owner realized this was "handler error'. Lol.
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