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  #21  
Old 10-02-2006, 07:27 PM
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Hello, Borntolead... you are right, no one would suggest another should "baby" their dog. As a trainer, I'm all too aware of what trouble that gets owners into. Having said that, I specialize in behavioral modification of aggressive dogs in my in-house training program. While I've used many types of equipment, if the situation warrented it, I do not reccommend all owners, use the same equipment, on all dogs. Especially a novice. In Ruckus' moms case, I don't believe the dog would benefit from certain types of equipment. It's a handling and conditioning issue. I also do my homework, (as much as possible, considering we're on the internet... Lol) before giving any advise. So, in this case... Ruckus is a 6 mo. old pup (approx) that this owner just aquired. She, herself is rather young, and sometimes admittedly nervous in certain situations. She works in a kennel for a Sheltie breeder, handler, exhibitor. She originally wanted to show this pup in conformation. He does need to learn to "lead out" approx. 2 ft. in front of her on left. A prong collar right now, will inhibit that. Also, when learning to stack on the table and be examined by someone the dogs uncomfortable with, a correction on prong collar if improperly timed could be disastrous. As for letting him drag lead and tethering, both great suggestions. I would like to reccommend you, Rabbitsarebetter, ask the breeder why at 6 months he's not leash trained yet and if they've had any problems. Or if Ruckus is just sizing his new mom up right now! Ha! Good luck.
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  #22  
Old 10-02-2006, 07:33 PM
Borntoleadk9.com Borntoleadk9.com is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otch1 View Post
Hello, Borntolead... you are right, no one would suggest another should "baby" their dog. As a trainer, I'm all too aware of what trouble that gets owners into. Having said that, I specialize in behavioral modification of aggressive dogs in my in-house training program. While I've used many types of equipment, if the situation warrented it, I do not reccommend all owners, use the same equipment, on all dogs. Especially a novice. In Ruckus' moms case, I don't believe the dog would benefit from certain types of equipment. It's a handling and conditioning issue. I also do my homework, (as much as possible, considering we're on the internet... Lol) before giving any advise. So, in this case... Ruckus is a 6 mo. old pup (approx) that this owner just aquired. She, herself is rather young, and sometimes admittedly nervous in certain situations. She works in a kennel for a Sheltie breeder, handler, exhibitor. She originally wanted to show this pup in conformation. He does need to learn to "lead out" approx. 2 ft. in front of her on left. A prong collar right now, will inhibit that. Also, when learning to stack on the table and be examined by someone the dogs uncomfortable with, a correction on prong collar if improperly timed could be disastrous. As for letting him drag lead and tethering, both great suggestions. I would like to reccommend you, Rabbitsarebetter, ask the breeder why at 6 months he's not leash trained yet and if they've had any problems. Or if Ruckus is just sizing his new mom up right now! Ha! Good luck.
very well said. i could not agree more.
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  #23  
Old 10-02-2006, 07:46 PM
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[QUOTE=Borntoleadk9.com;467806][QUOTE=dr2little;467787]


wow, looked like i offended someone. geez. take a pill. relax. prong collars ARE NOT innapropriate for puppies. tell that to the guy with an 80 pound golden jumping up and pulling his arms out of their sockets.
Yes, I have to admit that the "hogwash" was a bit harsh but I really don't get why people rush to put on an aversive for control.
in my experience i have learned time and time and time again that everyone has an opinion on prong collars when they dont understand how to use them properly. tell you what, go learn how to use a prong collar correctly and then we can talk. prong collars are for people who have been properly trained and know how to use them. i see LOTS of people abusing them.
First, I train upwards of 1000 dogs/year and not only don't recommend them but will not allow them in class or private work. As to your point about people abusing them....EXACTLY! That's one huge reason why I stopped allowing them in class many years ago. The majority of dog owners go to a pet store, ask some inexperienced sales person for "help" and leave knowing less than when they entered the store. Recommending them on a dog forum without knowing the dog/handler or having the opportinity to actually "help" can lead to so many problems for both dog and owner.

to say they are innappropriate and give me the mad face is very telling of your open mindedness and insight to training. temperment is more important that size, age or breed when deciding what kind of collar to use. any trainer should know this. to make a blanket statement that prongs are not good for puppies is ignorant and misinformed.I absolutely agree that it has nothing to do with size but I hold firm to my statement that they are ABSOLUTELY INAPPROPRIATE for puppies. Are you suggesting that you "train" a puppy using aversives right from the get go? Correction during the learning phase...

it is also importnat to understand i consider a puppy any dog under 1 year. i totally advocate (if needed) a prong for a puppy starting at 4 months old and ONLY after they have had their temperament accessed.
Don't even know where to start with the 4 month old puppy thing.. I think that one thing that people should understand is that recommending the use of an aversive to someone who may be inexperienced and need more guidance is a scary proposition.
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  #24  
Old 10-02-2006, 07:56 PM
Borntoleadk9.com Borntoleadk9.com is offline
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[QUOTE=dr2little;467844][QUOTE=Borntoleadk9.com;467806]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr2little View Post


wow, looked like i offended someone. geez. take a pill. relax. prong collars ARE NOT innapropriate for puppies. tell that to the guy with an 80 pound golden jumping up and pulling his arms out of their sockets.
Yes, I have to admit that the "hogwash" was a bit harsh but I really don't get why people rush to put on an aversive for control.
in my experience i have learned time and time and time again that everyone has an opinion on prong collars when they dont understand how to use them properly. tell you what, go learn how to use a prong collar correctly and then we can talk. prong collars are for people who have been properly trained and know how to use them. i see LOTS of people abusing them.
First, I train upwards of 1000 dogs/year and not only don't recommend them but will not allow them in class or private work. As to your point about people abusing them....EXACTLY! That's one huge reason why I stopped allowing them in class many years ago. The majority of dog owners go to a pet store, ask some inexperienced sales person for "help" and leave knowing less than when they entered the store. Recommending them on a dog forum without knowing the dog/handler or having the opportinity to actually "help" can lead to so many problems for both dog and owner.

to say they are innappropriate and give me the mad face is very telling of your open mindedness and insight to training. temperment is more important that size, age or breed when deciding what kind of collar to use. any trainer should know this. to make a blanket statement that prongs are not good for puppies is ignorant and misinformed.I absolutely agree that it has nothing to do with size but I hold firm to my statement that they are ABSOLUTELY INAPPROPRIATE for puppies. Are you suggesting that you "train" a puppy using aversives right from the get go? Correction during the learning phase...

it is also importnat to understand i consider a puppy any dog under 1 year. i totally advocate (if needed) a prong for a puppy starting at 4 months old and ONLY after they have had their temperament accessed.
Don't even know where to start with the 4 month old puppy thing.. I think that one thing that people should understand is that recommending the use of an aversive to someone who may be inexperienced and need more guidance is a scary proposition.
1)yes, you are right. advising a prong to a person who is not trained was wrong, and I know better. my bad.
2) correcting a puppy for pulling on walks or jumping up is fine and i do it all day long. these are pack/social behaviors and will not be tolerated by the pack or me at any point. dogs do not get special rewards for acting like they are supposed to act. this includes not pulling the leader down the road or jumping up on them.
3) i NEVER correct in the learning phase. thats crazy and id likely slap someone silly if i saw them doing this. however, you must realize there is a BIG difference between social behavior and learned behavior. i only issue a correction for a learned behavior well after i KNOW 100% that the dog knows the command but is being willful.
4) i am curious as to how you would deal with the problem of competing motivation if you do not use corrections?
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  #25  
Old 10-02-2006, 08:01 PM
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i actually work for a collie kennel, breeder, handler!

this is giving me lots of insite. thanks for all of the relpies! I dont think i have had Ruckus for 3 weeks now, and he is my first dog, although i am around 25 dogs 40+ hours a week. I have yet to train the dogs i work with, by time they hired me they were trained. however i did work on leash breaking the puppies. so i am not really novice at this. the diffrence is, at the kennel if one of the collies doesnt want to walk on the leash (during leash breaking) I would simply bait him/her with a treat. And that doesnt work with Ruckus because he could careless about a treat when he is outside. With all the smells and exitement a treat means nothing to him outdoors.
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  #26  
Old 10-02-2006, 08:01 PM
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oh yeah, and he didnt do this with his prevoius owners so it does sound like he is testing me.
hehe
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  #27  
Old 10-02-2006, 08:07 PM
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Uh oh... he hasn't seen the thread started last week on "Uncle Matty". Borntolead, go training forum and pull that up. Browse. You will get to know some of the trainers and vets opinions on training technique/methods. Then would you please consider posting on the thread I started, "Calling all trainers" and post if this applies to you. Doberluv was the last to post! Yet, I've found 6 more posts, identifiying themselves as trainers. I think having a veterinarian post made everyone think twice about putting themselves down as a "trainer', if that's not really what they do for a living. Lol. I think it helps us better understand each others posts if we understand each others training backgrounds. Hope you'll consider posting there.
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  #28  
Old 10-02-2006, 08:08 PM
Borntoleadk9.com Borntoleadk9.com is offline
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Originally Posted by rabbitsarebetter View Post
With all the smells and exitement a treat means nothing to him outdoors.
exactly. when the mind stops, the body stops. you have to keep the mind going. try being SUPER upbeat and positive until you want to puke! also, do not anticipate that Ruckus will stop. you will create that reality if you think it. just walk as if ruckus is right by your side. head up, shoulders back and LOOSE leash.
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  #29  
Old 10-02-2006, 08:11 PM
Borntoleadk9.com Borntoleadk9.com is offline
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Originally Posted by otch1 View Post
Uh oh... he hasn't seen the thread started last week on "Uncle Matty". Borntolead, go training forum and pull that up. Browse. You will get to know some of the trainers and vets opinions on training technique/methods. Then would you please consider posting on the thread I started, "Calling all trainers" and post if this applies to you. Doberluv was the last to post! Yet, I've found 6 more posts, identifiying themselves as trainers. I think having a veterinarian post made everyone think twice about putting themselves down as a "trainer', if that's not really what they do for a living. Lol. I think it helps us better understand each others posts if we understand each others training backgrounds. Hope you'll consider posting there.
not to bash anyone, but the LAST people on earth i am taking training tips from are vets. they know medicine and saving lives, leave the training to us. i have heard vets say the most absurd crappola in my life about training. makes me wonder sometimes.
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  #30  
Old 10-02-2006, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Borntoleadk9.com View Post
exactly. when the mind stops, the body stops. you have to keep the mind going. try being SUPER upbeat and positive until you want to puke! also, do not anticipate that Ruckus will stop. you will create that reality if you think it. just walk as if ruckus is right by your side. head up, shoulders back and LOOSE leash.
thats how the collies at work are. lol

Ruckus is an odd dog. you baby talk him and act exited his tail doesnt wag and he looks at you like you are stupid. sometimes it even scared him and makes things worse
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